Is the 13th at Pine Valley

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The kick-plate ONLY effects shots headed for the front left corner of the green..


That's not true.
You need to reexamine the features fronting the green.

that's the fly in your ointment...

Not really

It takes balls away from 75% of the green!

I think your number is far too exagerated.
Remember, that the kickplate at NGLA directs balls away from the green if they don't have the right flight into that angle.

[archie_struthers]

  :oO

Ok just got out of my kayak and love the kick plate on 13.  If you look back it is quite pronounced but doesn't extend all the way along the fairway, it starts approximately ten maybe twelve yards from  the right front and becomes more pronounced as the elevation drops to the front of the green.  

It mirrors a ridge line in the green which runs almost directly in the middle.    It is way cool.  I'm for thinking Crump didn't attempt to create templates but rather let his imagination and experiences fuel the design!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

Thanks.

It's really quite a unique hole and the kick plate makes it playable to all levels of golfers.

Sometimes I use it, other times I just fire at the flagstick.

Distance and the way I feel about my game usually dictate that decision.

When you look at the elements within the hole, the canted green, intervening, deep hazard and kickplate, methinks that Crump or his successor adopted elements of the Redan in the design, construction and play of the hole.

What few ever see is the bunker behind the green, another Redan trait.

[Scott Warren]

Tom Dunne discovered some great info a few months back about the origins of the greensite on 13.

He wrote that the hole was initially planned to play in a straight line over the hill, until Crump noticed the spit of "peninsula" off to the left that houses the green.

He added that this routing change had a tremendous impact on the back nine as it then opened up for 14 to become the hole we know today and for the 15th tee to be situated on the opposite side of the lake to the fairway.

Everything I have ever read says Wilson and his brother built the unfinished holes (inc. 13) to Crump's detailed plans, but I suppose we will never know for sure.

[Tom MacWood]

Tillinghast claimed he designed the 13th hole. The hole differs from the one Colt originally devised. In an article regarding the Redan CBM referred to the 3rd hole at PV as a Redan.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

# 3 at PV a Redan ?

That's a real stretch.

There is no kickplate fronting the green.
The green does have a high front right shoulder, but it functions differently than most redans due to the trajectory of approach shots, especially with hole locations from front to center.

Whereas, # 13's green surrounds and green function like a redan

[Tom MacWood]

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1914/gi4h.pdf

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

The reference appears to be to the Redan "principle", as CBM doesn't classify # 3 as a Redan.

He goes on to describe the penisula like quality of the land that readily accepts the Redan concept and that penisula is exactly the site at PV



CBM goes on to say that the Redan principle can be used with an infinite number of variations and I submit that # 13 is one of them.

# 13 has the qualities described in the first paragraph.




I was surprised that there was no mention of the 1st at The Creek and the 12th at Fishers Island until I saw that the article was dated in 1914.

[Patrick_Mucci]

From an aerial.

The penisula is much clearer.

[DMoriarty]

This has been quoted on here numerous times before, but nonetheless here is part of what Macdonald and H.J. Whigham wrote in 1914 in their Golf Illustrated article on the Redan.

The principle of the Redan can be used wherever a long narrow tableland can be found or made.
. . .
There are several Redans to be found nowadays on American courses. There is a simplified Redan at Piping Rock, a reversed Redan at Merion Cricket Club (the green being approached from the left hand end of the tableland) and another reversed Redan at Sleepy Hollow where the tee instead of being about level with the green is much higher. A beautiful short hole with the Redan principle will be found on the new Philadelphia course at Pine Valley. Here also the tee is higher than the hole, so that the player overlooks the tableland. The principle can be used with an infinite number of variations on any course.

As for Patrick's question, I cannot begin to answer it given that I haven't seen the hole.  But even if I had seen the hole, it would seem the answer would be largely definitional, and dependent upon how the answerer defined the redan.   Some here want to define it at least in part by distance, and Patrick by "the canted green, intervening, deep hazard and kickplate" and the general functionality of the shot in.

I am never comfortable calling holes templates, because the soundness of the underlying concepts seem to me to be more important than whether a hole was specifically modeled after some other hole. Macdonald and Whigham seem to have understood this, which is probably why they could write that "the principle can be used with an infinite number of various on any course."   And why the examples are so do diverse (and include at least two holes that most don't consider "redans" today.)

I assume that generally "the principle" to which they referred is the placement of the green on tableland where the terrain and conditions (wind and turf) oftentimes allow the skilled golfer to work his ball around a hazard on the ground rather than playing directly over a hazard and at the pin.   But then that may be me reading my own definition into things.  

But if one focuses on this as "the principle," then I guess by the way you guys are describing the 13th, one could find redanish qualities whether any particular redan hole was used as a model or not.

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick

The kick plate at the front of the green is not as severe as most redans I've seen.

Kevin,

Thanks for the photo.
Unfortunately,  it's taken from a position that's a little far forward and to the right of the typical DZ, depriving the viewer of the Redan nature of the approach angle

That kickplate is so far back up the fairway that it appears some shots could be kicked off into the left trouble.   The appears to be nothing up at the green to help with that left hand kick.

I guess I need to get back there and take a look........

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

The kickplate really isn't visible in that photo.

Next time you're there, go on the green, the front left, and look back into the fairway.
You'll see a pronounced hump/spine that's the kickplate.

The general cant of the fairway helps, but, the kickplate accentuates the redirect.

[archie_struthers]

 


I've been there a thousand times but without actually standing and looking at both   But I'm thinking more and more that the spine in the green matches that of the "kick plate" as Pat likes to call It...

[Scott Warren]

The kickplate also extends into the right-hand side of the green by a few metres.

I had a 20m chip from 15m right of the green in the fairway to a pin cut about 5m on the right centre (you can see it in my pic on page one of this thread) and it was nigh on impossible to stop the ball before or at the hole because the slope at the edge of the green, running in 3-4m, is quite significant.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

I had a two hour conversation with that idiot-savant, TEPaul last night.

We were talking about the incredible advantage that "local knowledge" brings to PV.

You of all people are probably more aware of it than most.

Some LN is subtle, other LN is more revealing, but, for the first time golfer he's usually clueless, I can think of how LN benefits the veteran significantly, on just about every hole.

Since you're a seasoned vet, if the hole was cut all the way back on # 1, how far short of the hole would you advise a golfer to hit his approach ?

[archie_struthers]

 


Pat you have to narrow the question for me....Is it a daily player ( handicap )   a Crump Qualifying  round    and how far  out was their tee shot  As you know the angle you take on the tee shot here has a great deal of impact on the second shot...thanks

[JESII]

I've been there a thousand times but without actually standing and looking at both   But I'm thinking more and more that the spine in the green matches that of the "kick plate" as Pat likes to call It...

No kidding...but what portion of the green does it "kick" a ball towards? and what portion does it "kick" the ball away from? I say 25/75 but would agree to 30/70...

By the way Pat, if that ridge looks artificial to you, considering what Archie just mentioned about it running through the green as it does, you may need another eye exam...and you may want to take Roger with you...line up that same nurse...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat you have to narrow the question for me....Is it a daily player ( handicap )   a Crump Qualifying  round    and how far  out was their tee shot  As you know the angle you take on the tee shot here has a great deal of impact on the second shot...thanks

Middle of fairway.

Assume 140, 160 and 180 to the flagstick.

Daily, Crump and $ 100 nassau.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've been there a thousand times but without actually standing and looking at both   But I'm thinking more and more that the spine in the green matches that of the "kick plate" as Pat likes to call It...

No kidding...but what portion of the green does it "kick" a ball towards? and what portion does it "kick" the ball away from? I say 25/75 but would agree to 30/70...

By the way Pat, if that ridge looks artificial to you, considering what Archie just mentioned about it running through the green as it does, you may need another eye exam...and you may want to take Roger with you...line up that same nurse...

Jim,

I can tell that you're sleep deprevation is begining to show.
Get those kids to bed earlier.

The ridge Archie refers to is not continuous.  It ends within the putting surface, however, the kickplate, begins about 5 yards short of the green and extends out another 15 or so yards.

It's a distinct, disconnected feature, despite a similar feature being within the putting surface.

With more sleep, your memory will be sharper.

[JESII]

With more sleep, your memory will be sharper.

I doubt it...

[archie_struthers]

 

What a great question for an old looper!   here goes

# 1 Pine Valley  2nd shot  strategy   mid fairway  tee shot   pin wayyyyyyy back

daily player  (5- 15 handicap)

140 yards    play it center green 130 yard shot ....have to be confident in your ability to hit a  short iron

160  yards    play it for 145 ....allow for some run out on shot  ....

180 yards      play it for 145 150  ...hole demands respect ...for the good to average player 5 isn't a bad score and although its a hard
                   hard two put or chip to the back pin this shot requires respect ...left or right could be death


$100 Nassau    


             140 yards        fire away hit it 135 and go for it ...it;'s match play
             160 yards        play it center of green ...four usually wins hole ..green 42 yards long so hit it 140-150
             180                front to middle front ...if you have a good player ..maybe a low skipper that releases


Crump Qualifier


            140            first hole of qualifier ...must play middle of green ...you are a good putter and can two putt
            160            remember rule #1 ...bogey doesn't kill you here....play front middle ...maybe a low trajectory controlled shot
            180            play short or at most middle of green  7 iron goes straighter than 5 iron for most , even good players
                              5 is a decent score from 180...there are plenty of birdies out there and a good up and down might start
                              you off in the right mindset



note in all cases you should play on the centerline of the green no matter if the pin is right or left , ieveryting deflects off the middle to one side or another and anything on th edges is no good as it slides against the collar or off the surface

[Mark McKeever]

Great input Archie!

Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

Thanks, I've always advocated the mid green strategy.

The only time I didn't employ it was the first time I played the hole.

I asked the caddy how far I was from the hole.  He indicated 165, so I hit a 6-iron to 4 feet and made birdie.

However, when I walked up onto the green, I was shocked by how severe the green fell off and narrowed as you went deeper into the green.

I thought to myself, if I knew how difficult and dangerous that hole location was, I never would have hit to the hole.

Hitting to the center of the green and taking your chances at two putting seems like the most prudent strategy.

[archie_struthers]

  ??

Pat.  number 1 always plays as one of the hardest holes whenever they do a stroke play event or Crump Qualifier surprisingly #4 sometimes is highon the list , particularly now with the new tee.   It is fierce!

I asked all my buddies on a recent trip there which hole would you take an automatic par on before you started.    For me there is no question it's # 8.   more calamities there IMHO than any other

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

I used to lay up on #8, until Jay Segal told me to hit driver down to the upslope just short of the green, taking the awkward and difficult downhill-sidehill lie out of play.

Even if you drive it through the fairway you have light rough or sand, from which you can hit a very short Lob-wedge.

Getting above the hole can be problematic