Is the 13th at Pine Valley

[Patrick_Mucci]

Crump's version of the Redan ?

You have the necessary ingredients.

The canted green, the kick plate, the heroic carry.

[JESII]

Might be Hugh Wilson's version of the Redan...

Crump passed away before 13 was built.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

But, did he pass away before # 13 was designed ?

[JC Jones]

Does it look like #3 at Merion?  If so, then it is definitely a redan as #3 at Merion is a reverse redan.  Hugh Wilson was quite the tempate-ist.

[Joe Bausch]

Pat, have you played a shot into 13 that suggested this idea?  Many times, or just recently?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

I've played it many times over the last 47 years, but, for the last three days I paid particular attention to the configuration of the "kick plate", that extends back into the fairway some 30 yards.

It's almost imperceptable from the high plateau DZ, but, when you stand on the green, especially the lower left half of the green and look back, it's quite striking.

Standing on the lower left side of the green, you can look back and clearly see the three ingredients.

[Ian Andrew]

It's almost imperceptable from the high plateau DZ, but, when you stand on the green, especially the lower left half of the green and look back, it's quite striking.

You can see the descending line all the way to the green by looking at the transition point against the trees.

.... and yes, I do believe it is a version of the Redan

[Tom_Doak]

Was Crump familiar with the Redan?  Did he ever travel to North Berwick, or just read about it via Macdonald.

[David_Elvins]

Was Crump familiar with the Redan?  Did he ever travel to North Berwick, or just read about it via Macdonald.

Do you need to be familiar with the Redan to build one? 

If you were designing 18 interesting, different greens, aren't the odds are in favour of one of them resembling a redan?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

It's not just the green, but the intervening bunker and the kick plate that combine to produce the "Redan"  effect in conjunction with the angle of attack from the DZ

It's quite a remarkable hole

[JESII]

Pat,

I was only half-serious about Hugh Wilson, and I don't know the answer to whether or not the hole had already been designed.

Are you talking about the kick-plate that runs up to the midde of the green? If the pin is anywhere in the right half, that kicker takes your ball away from the hole. I do agree with you though that this is an interpretation of the Redan. Interestingly, in one of his writings (maybe the chapter on The Redan) CBM uses the 3rd hole as an example of a Redan.

[Kevin Pallier]

Patrick

The kick plate at the front of the green is not as severe as most redans I've seen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

No, I'm referencing the kick plate that's back in the fairway just short of the green.

When you're on the green and turn around and examine it, you'll notice that it's quite pronounced.

Kevin,

The kick plate is hardly noticeable from the DZ and your photo, but it's quite pronounced when you view it from the green

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

The kick plate at the front of the green is not as severe as most redans I've seen.

Kevin,

Thanks for the photo.
Unfortunately,  it's taken from a position that's a little far forward and to the right of the typical DZ, depriving the viewer of the Redan nature of the approach angle

[Sean Leary]

Wow that picture of 13 makes the green and fairway are short of the green look much smaller than it is. I almost thought it might be the copy hole from the Short Course.

13 is a hole where the back tee that was added has helped the hole tremendously. There is a dip in the fairway in the landing area where if you don't make it over it creates almost a blind second shot from way back.

[jonathan_becker]

A friend of mine took this photo last year during a visit.  It's not the best shot, but you can start to see the kick towards the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jonathan,

Your friends photo is probably more representative of the shot the golfer faces after his drive in terms of angle of attack and the impact of the intervening bunker complex

It makes the "Redan" shot, the shot of choice, especially when the hole is cut on the lower left or back left portion of the green

[Kalen Braley]

Pat,

I thought being a par 3 was the most necessary ingredient, but I could be wrong.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,

You know better than to say that you COULD be wrong.

You are WRONG.

The 1st at The Creek, a par 4, has a redan green, as does the 12th at Fishers Island, another par 4.

You've got to learn to expand your architectural horizons.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

You know better than to say that you COULD be wrong.

You are WRONG.

The 1st at The Creek, a par 4, has a redan green, as does the 12th at Fishers Island, another par 4.

You've got to learn to expand your architectural horizons.

Well,

I know when dealing with you, it doesn't actually matter whether i'm right or wrong, in ur mind it will always be wrong! 

That being said, I'm guessing if you put it to a vote, the majority of the treehouse would agree that being a par 3 is a critical ingredient to being a redan.  How else is the archie going to dictate that line of play to the player?  If its a par 4 or par 5, the player could be approaching that green complex from just about anywhere.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,

You know better than to say that you COULD be wrong.

You are WRONG.

The 1st at The Creek, a par 4, has a redan green, as does the 12th at Fishers Island, another par 4.

You've got to learn to expand your architectural horizons.

Well,

I know when dealing with you, it doesn't actually matter whether i'm right or wrong, in ur mind it will always be wrong! 
That's a fairly accurate statement, reinforced by your track record

That being said, I'm guessing if you put it to a vote, the majority of the treehouse would agree that being a par 3 is a critical ingredient to being a redan. 

Ahhh, democracy, where the ten wolves and two sheep vote on deciding what's for dinner.
You need to go back and reread the original thread.
Somehow, you continue to morph what I state into something you want me to state so that you can attempt to be correct.
Attempts that to date, have failed


How else is the archie going to dictate that line of play to the player? 

It's done quite well at # 13 at PV.
Go left and you're down, way down, out of play with a blind recovery.
Go right and you're blocked by a tall tree line in the woods.
Drive to the designated DZ and you'll see what the pictures reflect.
You'll be "on the tee" ready to hit to that green from the plateaued, prefered, DZ

You have so much to learn and my available time so short.

If its a par 4 or par 5, the player could be approaching that green complex from just about anywhere.

Not on # 13 at PV.
You really have to see the hole in person to appreciate the juxtaposition of the features and how they integrate to make the hole a world class hybrid redan.

It's really a sensational hole.  One that I can't remember being duplicated anywhere.

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

A picture from the DZ:

[Kalen Braley]

Patrick,

I get this..

It's done quite well at # 13 at PV.
Go left and you're down, way down, out of play with a blind recovery.
Go right and you're blocked by a tall tree line in the woods.
Drive to the designated DZ and you'll see what the pictures reflect.
You'll be "on the tee" ready to hit to that green from the plateaued, prefered, DZ

But how do you enforce people to use the DZ?  Most players are just trying to get the ball on the fairway much less the correct part of the fairway.  So sure for 2% of players who have that kind of control, this may be interesting...but for the other 98% it doesn't matter what the DZ is, people will simply play thier next shot from where their 1st went....as opposed to a par 3 where once again the arhictect can dictate where 100% of the players hit from.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I get this..

It's done quite well at # 13 at PV.
Go left and you're down, way down, out of play with a blind recovery.
Go right and you're blocked by a tall tree line in the woods.
Drive to the designated DZ and you'll see what the pictures reflect.
You'll be "on the tee" ready to hit to that green from the plateaued, prefered, DZ

But how do you enforce people to use the DZ?  


Kalen,

How ?
Look at the scale of the hole, especiallly the green complex.
It's huge, it's a redan on steroids.

Most players are just trying to get the ball on the fairway much less the correct part of the fairway.  

Not really, the fairway is huge/wide in the DZ.
Those that miss the fairway, usually recover to the DZ.

So sure for 2% of players who have that kind of control, this may be interesting...but for the other 98% it doesn't matter what the DZ is, people will simply play thier next shot from where their 1st went

Not on this hole.
You're problem is simply a lack of familiarty with the hole.
You have to understand the scale of the hole in conjunction with the Redan concept.
But, don't take my word for it, seek the words of those who have played it, and more importantly, those who have caddied there.

....as opposed to a par 3 where once again the arhictect can dictate where 100% of the players hit from.

You're a prisoner of a preconceived notion, that a teeing area needs to be narrow in order to produce a desired effect.
# 13 at PV disproves that notion through scale.  Please look again at the photos.  The green, approach and kickplate are huge and the general topogrphy slopes from high right to low left.

If you look closely, you'll quickly see that you can NOT go left of that green.
Yet, if you played too far right on a normal green/surroundings there would be no compensating factor.
At # 13, the topography, kickplate and slope of the green provide the Redan effect.

It's a hybrid Redan for sure, and plays like one, just ask those who have played it, or better yet, those who have caddied there.
Where's Archie Struthers when you need him ?

[JESII]

Pat,

The kick-plate ONLY effects shots headed for the front left corner of the green...that's the fly in your ointment...It takes balls away from 75% of the green!