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Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
My Open Championship preview is done and I love it.  If I have a typo or somethin glemme know and I'll fix it before it gets syndicated.  Special guest James Bond makes an appearance - Duh duh-duh-DAAAAH - duh-duh DAAAAH! (how do you type the James Bond theme?)

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=3738

From the piece:

St. George’s – Sandwich to its friends – within sight of the stately, stoic white cliffs of Dover is so charming and inspiring in its authenticity as a true links, Shakespeare himself would hold his quill with a flawless Vardon grip and pause at the top of his pen strokes.

This year will mark the lucky 14th Open for St. George’s, which opened in 1887 and hosted its first Open in 1894. How’s that for staying power? But despite its venerable reputation as an outstanding and historic golf course, no other course in the Rota polarizes opinions like St. George’s. Jack Nicklaus may have infamously opined that British Open venues get worse the further south you go – which was his misguided way at having a backhanded slap at the strange bounces and corresponding random luck sometimes meted out by the rumpled fairways and topsy-turvy greens – but you know what? Winning 18 majors doesn’t mean you’re always right about golf course architecture. Frequently the opposite is true.

Nicklaus may have snubbed St. George’s but no less a personage than Bernard Darwin, one of the four greatest golf writers in history, (the others are Herbert Warren Wind, Grantland Rice, and Dan Jenkins), loved it, calling it one of his absolute favorites, and pondering why anyone would quibble with how much fun the occasional strange bounce or blind shot makes our grand old game. Or as golf course architecture expert Ran Morrissett writes, “It would be nonsensical not to have at least one or two blind tee shots as, otherwise, the holes simply would not be reflective of the land upon which they are on.”

Moreover, another well-decorated champion, Ben Crenshaw, told Morrissett in an interview, “I believe that Royal St. George’s has the finest set of greens of any of the Open courses. The variety found throughout all its greens is really exceptional.”

But one other famous and entertaining voice has a great deal to say about what makes Royal St. George’s such an outstanding venue for a golf competition – England’s iconic author Ian Fleming, creator of James Bond 007. While the epic movie golf battle between Goldfinger and Bond was filmed at Stoke Poges, in the book it takes place at Royal St. George’s or “St. Mark’s” as Fleming dubbed it, (for reasons best known to himself). We get not one chapter of the golf match between the two arch-nemeses but three, and many holes are lovingly detailed. But before we have Fleming break down St. George’s like a fraction, let’s first turn to the history of the course.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 10:15:13 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2011, 02:48:21 AM »
Jay if you’re serious about this I think it needs  more work.  I’ve only read the bit you put on here and as a fact checker I’m only a Doak 3 but


You can’t see the White Cliffs of Dover which lie south of the course, its the white cliffs to the north you see.

A two handed grip on a quill as a metaphor?
You’ve reversed what Niclaus was quoted as saying therefore it’s an argument rather than a quote?

You imply that those who’ve won 18 majors are frequently wrong about architecture. Only one guy has won 18 majors and not all your readers will know that. Could be expressed a lot better.

Not clear that that was a “snub” by Niclaus but I’ll let that one go if you correct the others.

“break down like a fraction” ....what?

"first turn"

Please email this to Gib for a proper job before you post it.   ;)

Strong kool aid last night?

(and I should dare to criticise another’s writing, have I no shame?)
Let's make GCA grate again!

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2011, 03:10:18 AM »
Pathetic ...... as usual !

Niall C

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Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2011, 05:36:21 AM »
Tony,

In fairness, at least Jay can spell Nicklaus  ;D

Niall

Jay Flemma

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Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2011, 05:40:38 AM »
Jay if you’re serious about this I think it needs  more work.  I’ve only read the bit you put on here and as a fact checker I’m only a Doak 3 but


You can’t see the White Cliffs of Dover which lie south of the course, its the white cliffs to the north you see.

The three UK and Irish writers I work all the majors with disagree, but maybe I could have said "Pegwell Bay"

A two handed grip on a quill as a metaphor?

Yes:)

You’ve reversed what Niclaus was quoted as saying therefore it’s an argument rather than a quote?

Of course...if he says, they get better as they go north, they get worse as they go south...everyone has known for decades that that was exactly what it meant - to criticize RSG.  You mis-spelled Nicklaus by the way

You imply that those who’ve won 18 majors are frequently wrong about architecture. Only one guy has won 18 majors and not all your readers will know that. Could be expressed a lot better.

Sorry, but I disagree with you on that - you're reaching

Not clear that that was a “snub” by Niclaus but I’ll let that one go if you correct the others.

“break down like a fraction” ....what?

"first turn"

You're right, you're at a bout a Doak 3:):),  but keep reading and we'll get you better.:):)  Kidding!  Kidding!  Seriously though - you go to great reaches to criticize what's here, but don't bother to read the rest, that's not exactly giving the piece a chance now is it.  

Please email this to Gib for a proper job before you post it.   ;)

We all have our favorites.  Gib is, of course quite good.

Strong kool aid last night?

Bloody Maria - not Mary...Maria, no horseradish, because I find it overpowers the drink, but several dashes of Tabasco.  Went well with my linguini arrabiata.  My friends own a Greek bistro across the street from me, so the sauce is made with a hint of ouzo, which makes it a bit sweet for my palate, but the size of the dish of pasta was enormous and at $13.50, it's an outstanding deal.  I actually finished the piece during dinner, so they joined me for dessert and we read bits aloud while having their new dish - Greek yogurt with cherries and berries.  They don't know as much about golf as GCA guys do, but perhaps that makes them more receptive.  All in all, a really nice night before I settled in to start my review of Seawane.

(and I should dare to criticise another’s writing, have I no shame?)


Brian,  nice to see you again!  I look forward to meeting you when I come across next year to play.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 05:46:15 AM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2011, 06:43:44 AM »
Brian,  nice to see you again!  I look forward to meeting you when I come across next year to play.
Not if Sandy Lyle gets you first !

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2011, 07:12:21 AM »
Hi Jay,

Just curious; have you played RSG?

Scott Warren

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Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2011, 07:43:26 AM »
Jay,

A typically forced and heavy-handed effort. Do you have someone else edit your work?

The writers you work the majors with are mistaken. Dover is some distance to the south. The white cliffs you can see are in an entirely different direction to Dover.

Why was Nicklaus misguided to make his famous comment? Have you played RSG?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2011, 08:09:52 AM »
Here's a Canadian's preview.

Sorry jay, I was going to start a new topic on proper links and why it's the best, but Lorne's piece only teased us with that lure. 

http://globeandmail.golfcanada.ca/professional-tours/pga-tour/?articleId=2091792#.ThfkpNXdSKk.facebook
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2011, 09:06:41 AM »
I love Lorne! We wrote together for a magazine for a couple of years and hang out whenever we're ever at the same major.  Excellent writer and an even better man.

Brian - great line about Sandy.

No boys, I haven't played Sandwich yet, but I can't wait to...but one of the network broadcasters I'm friends with that I see at every tournament was nice enough to call me last night just for fun and say that it was a good piece...especially for a guy that's never been there.

You know what?  Sometimes you get assigned a piece about a course you've never played...in fact, it happens quite a lot.  Far more frequently than you'd think.  How many guys covering the Women's Open this week have played the Broadmoor? 
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Scott Warren

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Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2011, 09:22:54 AM »
So having not played Sandwich, what qualifies you to label Nicklaus's criticism "misguided"?

I don't think anyone begrudges you having not played the course, but it's poor judgement (and writing) to be dismissing as "misguided" the opinion of someone who has played the course in three Open Championships and who knows how many other practice rounds before those Opens. Especially when that someone is Jack Nicklaus.

I think your broadcaster friend was merely being polite. Unless he's one of the folks who assured you that you can see Dover from Royal St George's. ;)

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2011, 09:30:38 AM »
So having not played Sandwich, what qualifies you to label Nicklaus's criticism "misguided"?

What?? That makes no sense...you know, if I was the only person to disagree with Nicklaus, I'd say you might have a point.  If I was the only person who liked St. George's you might have a point.  But it's pretty much widely accepted that the comment from Jack wasn't one of his finest hours.  Even Jack can be wrong - even coming from someone like me, who worshipped him as a player.  Jack was and still is my favorite golfer....golfer.

I don't think anyone begrudges you having not played the course, but it's poor judgement (and writing) to be dismissing as "misguided" the opinion of someone who has played the course in three Open Championships and who knows how many other practice rounds before those Opens. Especially when that someone is Jack Nicklaus.

I think your broadcaster friend was merely being polite.

That's possible, I never thought of that...someone would just call me on the cell out of the blue with no prompting from me just to be polite about my piece.  If that's the case, I need even more friends like him:)

Unless he's one of the folks who assured you that you can see Dover from Royal St George's. ;)
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2011, 09:38:09 AM »
Brian - great line about Sandy.
Have you ever wrote an article without the word "Jerk" in it ?

It always seems like to me, that you are either calling someone a "Jerk", or are denying that you are a "Jerk" !

Andy Troeger

Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2011, 09:44:29 AM »
Jay,
I liked a lot of the source material that you found, and the bit about Nicklaus/Darwin is interesting, but Scott is absolutely right that the article would be much better without the "misguided" bit. Its quite interesting to learn what some of the folks who have competed at RSG prior think about the course, but it would be much more convincing to me to say that others that have competed there find the opinion misguided. Jack might be wrong, but you're not in a position of authority to be convicing.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2011, 09:57:56 AM »
Brian - great line about Sandy.
Have you ever wrote an article without the word "Jerk" in it ?

It always seems like to me, that you are either calling someone a "Jerk", or are denying that you are a "Jerk" !

I'm sorry, I must be confused.  Scott I called Tiger an impenitent jerk once and I may have said it about Daly when he stormed off Hazeltine, but that's it.  Maybe you just see only what you want to see.

Andy, I appreciate your comments and the kind, even handed way in which they are delivered.  Maybe you're right...but what's done is done, what's written is written and I'm gonna stand by it and remember to keep an eye out for it next time.   Still, I think BenC's comments and Ran's are a nice counterpoint that carry good authority too.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 10:01:20 AM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Link Walsh

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Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2011, 01:53:26 PM »
Nice read Jay.  Not sure why some people are attacking it so much.  It's an intro piece to a British Open course that most people probably don't know much about.  I'm sure the vast majority of golf fans will find it both informative and entertaining.

Andy Troeger

Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2011, 02:20:49 PM »
Andy, I appreciate your comments and the kind, even handed way in which they are delivered.  Maybe you're right...but what's done is done, what's written is written and I'm gonna stand by it and remember to keep an eye out for it next time.   Still, I think BenC's comments and Ran's are a nice counterpoint that carry good authority too.

Jay,
I absolutely think those two counterpoints are good authority--that's actually my point. With Nicklaus on one side and the others as counterpoints you had good material without having to interject at all. As an aside, most of my print media experience came as a reporter, so I'm used to being more factual than opinionated in my writing. Even when given the opportunity to write columns, I tried to cheat and use the words of others as much as possible and to use their authority to prove my points for me!

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2011, 02:34:44 PM »
Andy, you're right...it is a more textbook way of doing things.  But I don't think it's wrong of me to say I also disagree with Jack, that's all.  This is a preview - and I wanted to get people excited to see a really cool course they haven't seen all that much, and in a long time.  I appreciate and respect your position, and for pieces that are news reporting, I'll stick to that good advice...for example in recapping the action on Friday and Sunday night, (unless I get assigned the feature piece or color column).

Thanks Link.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Andy Troeger

Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2011, 02:52:09 PM »
Jay,
Its by no means wrong...we are all entitled to have opinions; its just not meaningful to me as a reader because of your knowledge level of the course at this point. If you had been there and reported on the last three Opens at RSG, then I'd be interested in what you think too.

I'm admittedly picking on you a bit for something I think most columnists do, and that's interjecting themselves into their pieces far too much. Good stories and pieces tell themselves and don't need "extras" in order to get people excited. But that's my opinion as well  ;)

David Kelly

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Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2011, 02:54:34 PM »
Well since you asked.
  • Why would Shakespeare be charmed and inspired by a links golf course?
  • Carnoustie and Royal Liverpool might be considered more polarizing than RSG.
  • Winning 18 majors doesn’t mean you’re always right about golf course architecture. Frequently the opposite is true. So winning 18 majors doesn't mean you're always wrong about golf course architecture? Or did you mean that winning 18 majors frequently means you are wrong about golf course architecture.  Anyway it's one of the weirder mix-ups of the fallacy of correlation vs. causation that I have read. And what is your sample size there?
  • Regardless of what people tell you the location of the White Cliffs of Dover is a verifiable fact.
  • Chaucer, Shakespeare, Dickens. These are iconic English authors.  Ian Fleming - not so much.
  • But before we have Fleming break down St. George’s like a fraction... Umm.....what?
  • Talk about a great wedding present for his fiancé Candace, who gushed, “Oh Ben!!! This is so great!!” If you are going to make up a quote how about something not so trite?
  • Interestingly, at dinner the night before the final round Vijay told his wife something along the lines of watch out for ben Curtis, don’t rule out, he can really play, and hang around long enough to be ahead after 72 holes are over. A myriad of grammar and capitalization problems there, the least of which is that apparently you are using the word "interestingly" to mean "of no interest at all."
  • And it’s the pros screaming like a bunch of Poncey hairdressers, an Australian having a nightmare, or Nancy Kerrigan that – Heaven forbid – their great drive rolled into the rough. But they have nothing to complain about.That sentence is so bad on so many levels that there is not much to say but the least you can do is not capitalize the word poncey.
  • Book of the Apocalypse. You mean the Book of Revelation?
  • According to legend, a maelstrom out of the pages of the Book of the Apocalypse raged through the course, thrilling King Lear, but tearing down an exhibition tent. Mix metaphors much?
  • So get ready – Royal St. George’s is back and will shine like the sparkling gem it is, materializing before our eyes like a reverie before vanishing into the mists of history once more to return and beguile us with her incomparable charm, just has she has for over a century. I beg you not to publish a sentence like that.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 03:54:24 PM by David Kelly »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2011, 03:12:37 PM »
Tony,

In fairness, at least Jay can spell Nicklaus  ;D

Niall


Yes I apologise to everyone for that it’s a shocker.   One of the reasons I’m posting less these days is I promised myself I wouldn’t dash off stuff which tends to not read well later. Case in point.

Jay I’m sorry, I’m told you are a great guy to hang out, with but I just can’t bring myself to read any further.  I know and love RSG well, in fact I rate it as THE standout course in England but the bit of your tract that I’ve read, does not resonate at all with the place I know.  I appreciate you are trying to create a buzz and that you are all jazzed up about this but really what’s the point if there’s no verisimilitude? 


Quotes can be selective.  If anyone has Ben Crenshaw’s no and wants to ring him up and ask him this weekend “Which course has the greater set of greens, RSG or TOC?”  If he says the former than I’ll donate $100 to the charity of your choice. You see I don’t think the greens are where the strength of RSG lies so I have a hard time accepting that quote.  IMO of course.

Incidentally regarding the Open, between my last two post s I’ve been down to Dover ;) and thence to play Deal where sadly I have to report they got more rain last night and shock horror I even had to repair pitch marks!


The great Jack Nicklaus summed things up neatly during a charity match on the Old Course at St. Andrews where he and I were playing against Ben Crenshaw and Glen Campbell. I asked him what he considered to be the most important factor to overcome in the game of golf. His reply, "It's an unfair game."
 - Sean Connery
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tim Martin

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Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2011, 03:18:59 PM »
I think you need to see the golf course before you write a piece like this.

George Pazin

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Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2011, 03:22:19 PM »
Liked the Tiger quip at the end.

Jay's writing always draws strong opinions, which is likely part of his intent. Might be interesting to note if any of the critics have met Jay. I enjoyed our day together at Oakmont in '07; in fact, he was the only one nice enough to actually show up for the arranged meeting! :)

I will say, Andy's probably right about the piece being stronger with just Jack's comments versus Ben and Ran's.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 03:25:55 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

DMoriarty

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Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2011, 03:31:22 PM »
What rubbish.  I doubt I'm the only one who cringes at Flemma's recurring use of this forum to promote his blog.  How do independent golf writers like Shackelford survive without resorting to this incessant self-promotion?  Could it be because of the quality of the product?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

David_Tepper

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Re: Yee-ha! Finished and posted my Open Championship preview!
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2011, 03:47:47 PM »
The first 2 sentences from Geoff Ogilvy's column in this week's issue of GolfWorld read:

"The funny thing about Royal St. George's is that it doesn't seem to by anyone's favorite course. It certainly isn't mine."

The rest of his column is a little more even-handed:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2011-07/golf-ogilvy-column-0711
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 03:50:28 PM by David_Tepper »