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Michael Moore

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Courses that don't end where they start
« on: July 08, 2011, 08:55:08 AM »
Tom Doak has indicated that his course at Dismal River will not end where it begins.

Have any of you ever played a course like this? I can't think of one.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2011, 09:00:12 AM »
Many courses that have a long drive to the first tee don't start and end in the same place. I think these are generally courses designed more for cartball than walking though.

Eric Smith

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2011, 09:09:27 AM »
Harbour Town I believe qualifies in this regard.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2011, 09:17:50 AM »
Michael:

I did the same thing at Black Forest in Michigan, twenty years ago now.  We had a similar issue there, the clubhouse was landlocked by lots that had been sold off, so we had to have a remote start and finish ... but I didn't see why the two had to be in the same place.

I hope that the routing at Dismal River won't mean that more people take a cart than would, anyway.  Excessive cart use won't be good for the fescue turf we hope to employ ... I suspect it has held up well on their first course so far only because they haven't played a high volume of rounds yet.  And the routing is very walkable, you just need someone to shuttle you out to the first tee, and then back up to the clubhouse when you're done.

I have seen such routings in a handful of other places -- Boyne Mountain, Michigan is the first which comes to mind.  But it's very uncommon, because it does create logistical issues, and we'd always rather finish close to the clubhouse if we could.

Jeff Evagues

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2011, 09:24:17 AM »
The Turtle Bay Palmer course is a good example.
Be the ball

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2011, 09:37:58 AM »

I hope that the routing at Dismal River won't mean that more people take a cart than would, anyway.  Excessive cart use won't be good for the fescue turf we hope to employ ... I suspect it has held up well on their first course so far only because they haven't played a high volume of rounds yet.  And the routing is very walkable, you just need someone to shuttle you out to the first tee, and then back up to the clubhouse when you're done.


When you first arrive at Dismal you are given a cart to go to and from your room and the clubhouse.  People who enjoy walking DD will simply take that same cart to the first tee and find it off the 18th when they are done.  Where the course begins and ends is as much a non-issue as where your room is located on the property.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2011, 09:50:45 AM »
I think that Kinloch Golf Club in VA also qualifies.  Although I think the walk from 18 back to the clubhouse is shortened a bit in your mind if you choose to play the 19th hole.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mark McKeever

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2011, 10:15:56 AM »
Broad Run in West Chester PA fits this category.  Not an easy walk either..

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Brent Hutto

Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2011, 10:35:41 AM »
If the only thing bad about a golf course is the distance between its first tee and last green then it must be a mighty fine golf course. I'm just sayin'...

Joe Bausch

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2011, 10:38:52 AM »
Broad Run in West Chester PA fits this category.  Not an easy walk either..

Mark

You should listen to the golf carts. . . not an easy ride either!   ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2011, 10:40:08 AM »
If the only thing bad about a golf course is the distance between its first tee and last green then it must be a mighty fine golf course. I'm just sayin'...

Who ever said it is a bad thing.  The first tee is the busiest, loudest most annoying tee on the course.  I think every great routing should avoid it at all costs.

Sean Leary

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2011, 10:48:39 AM »
How far apart is 1 and 18 at DD going to be?

Tom, would Tumble Creek in this count as well?

Jim McCann

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2011, 01:21:07 PM »
Martin Ebert designed the resort course of Tecina in the Canary Islands when he worked with Donald Steel.

Golfers are transported in a minibus to the top of a hillside then they play holes down the the side of the hill
to the clubhouse by the 18th green:

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/productdetails.asp?id=2037

Well worth a day trip to La Gomera if you're in Tenerife on holiday and have the clubs with you. 

CJ Carder

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2011, 01:29:36 PM »
Pebble Beach is also a candidate for this group

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2011, 01:35:34 PM »
Tom:

Surprised you didn't mention Lost Dunes.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Chris Johnston

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2011, 01:50:29 PM »
Tom had the creative freedom to find the best holes and routing.  For me, that is far more important than an ending at the beginning.  With the scale of the property, it really works.  The closest proximity to the clubhouse is almost a mile in distance.  A spectacular routing is the highest priority.

Yannick Pilon

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2011, 03:46:11 PM »
Dooks Golf Links in Ireland has a weird setup that could qualify on this thread.

The first and eighteenth holes are side by side, and you have to cross the first fairway to get back to the clubhouse once you're done. 

To make matters more interesting, you can't see the golf course from the clubhouse....

Weird setup, no doubt, but still a fun course while in County Kerry.

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2011, 03:58:01 PM »
Tom had the creative freedom to find the best holes and routing.  For me, that is far more important than an ending at the beginning.  With the scale of the property, it really works.  The closest proximity to the clubhouse is almost a mile in distance.  A spectacular routing is the highest priority.

Funny, from the fire pit behind the clubhouse the 18th doesn't look an inch over 1000 yds.

J Sadowsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2011, 05:03:07 PM »
Langston Golf Course in Washington DC has a rather curious layout.  The 9th hole green is by the clubhouse, you walk pass that to get to the first hole.  After you are done on 9, you walk again past the first hole, past the practice area, past the 18th green, over a river (they sometimes have you tee off on 10 on the near side of the river, if you play from the tips), to the 10th hole.  Then the course plays up, back over the river (on a par 3), and down to the 18th, where you have to walk back to the clubhouse.  If the clubhouse were located where the current practice area was, the course would look like a normal American two-looper (except for the fact that the driving range is past the 18th hole), but because the clubhouse is actually off to one end, it has a weird lack of continuity, particularly the walk from 9 to 10. 

Other than the (reasonable) walk from the clubhouse to the first, and the somewhat less reasonable walks from the 9th to the 10th and the 18th back to the clubhouse, the course is a very easy walk.

rjsimper

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2011, 05:32:11 PM »
The Babe at Industry Hills - 18th green is nowhere close to the first tee....across the hotel/practice green/snack shack property and 500 feet of elevation.

And no, that is not the only bad thing I can say about that golf course. ;D

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2011, 09:35:58 PM »
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 09:38:50 PM by Pete_Pittock »

jim_lewis

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2011, 10:33:16 PM »
At the Country Club of Castle Pines (not to be confused with the neighboring Castle Pines GC), the 18th green sits about 800 feet below the clubhouse, which sits on the edge of a cliff.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2011, 07:21:17 AM »
Stone Gate Golf Club in Twin Lake, MI falls into this group.  The first tee is just outside of the clubhouse and the 18th green is beyond the entry road on the opposites side of the clubhouse and 300 to 500 yards beyond this road.

Chris

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2011, 07:06:12 PM »
Ann Arbor Country Club might qualify.  The 18th hole is across the road about 400 to 500 feet from the clubhouse and 600 to 700 feet from the 1st tee.

Chris

Eric Smith

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Re: Courses that don't end where they start
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2011, 10:26:13 AM »
There is a fine Arthur Hills course in Kodak, TN called River Islands that finishes up along the banks of the French Broad. The first tee and clubhouse are maybe 3-400 yards away from the 18th green.

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