Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?

[Jerry Kluger]

I was playing with some guys this weekend and mentioned that the APL was being played at Old Mac and they told me that they watched it but said they would never want to go and play it.  They really didn't see the fun of playing a course like that under those conditions.  Instead they mentioned Shadow Creek as a greatl course and thought the waterfall at Trump DC was really cool.  I really wonder what percentage of golfers appreciate great links golf as opposed to lush green courses with soft greens. 

[Tom_Doak]

Jerry:

Most people are scared by the idea of playing in really windy conditions.  In fact, when we were working on Pacific Dunes, and I was writing my thoughts on the course, Mike Keiser consistently nixed any mention of the wind and how we designed around it.

I asked him what he was going to say when people showed up and it was windy ... he said most people didn't mind playing in it, but the idea of playing in it was a turn-off.  He's probably right about that.

[JMEvensky]

I'll take a stab.

With all the usual caveats about what constitutes the "average golfer",I'd guess that the answer is no.My guess is that most AG's would rather travel to play something familiar.For most,wind,tightly mown brownish grass,and firm greens are very unfamiliar.

But,I'm not certain that this is limited to Average Golfers.Most average concert goers probably wouldn't travel to hear jazz or classical music.Most average diners probably wouldn't get on a plane to eat authentic Szechuan.And I doubt if most average readers are discussing Finnegan's Wake in their book clubs.People like their comfort zones to be unchallenging.

Links golf is an acquired taste for those of us growing up in the US.Unfortunately,a lot of golfers won't even make the effort to see if it's something they like.

[Dan Kelly]

Jerry:

Most people are scared by the idea of playing in really windy conditions.  In fact, when we were working on Pacific Dunes, and I was writing my thoughts on the course, Mike Keiser consistently nixed any mention of the wind and how we designed around it.

I asked him what he was going to say when people showed up and it was windy ... he said most people didn't mind playing in it, but the idea of playing in it was a turn-off.  He's probably right about that.

99 percent of the time, on any question, I'm in the minority. Not always a tiny minority, but almost always a minority.

So when I say that nothing in the playing of golf shots is more satisfying to imagine than (sometimes successfully) battling the wind, I know Mr. Keiser wasn't just probably right; there's a 99-percent chance that he was absolutely right!

His observation is a really interesting glimpse into consumer psychology. At least I think it's really interesting -- though, duh, most people almost certainly wouldn't agree.

[Adam Clayman]

My response to the topics question is; Who cares?

The average golfer is a nimkumpoop.

[Jud_T]

I'll tell you in 3 weeks    Based on my experience I'd say they like playing links golf generally, but not when the wind blows north of 25 mph...Last time out we played Bandon Dunes the afternoon we arrived in wind similar to the one they experienced in Friday's (?) round.  I thought it was a ton of fun, but I heard a lot of whining from the peanut gallery...

[Kalen Braley]

I think Mike Keiser got it right.  Most people will end up enjoying themselves if they just go do it, even if they don't think they will.

That being said, while I don't mind windy conditions, I would hate to get brutalized in daily 20-25 MPH winds day after day.  Its nice to mix in a few quiet rounds too where you can hear the birds chirping and all that.

P.S.  Tom any word on when that book on Pac Dunes is coming out?  Or are you adding a few more chapters to include old mac and killing two birds with one stone?    

[Jim Franklin]

Adam nailed it.

[Trevor]

I think it is important to distinguish between the average golfer and the ignorant golfer

[Peter Pallotta]

Dan - well said.  I don't know if Tom D only shares the good bits with us, but Mike K gets more impressive to me all the time. I think his instincts were (and, it seems, have proven to be) spot on.  I'm an average golfer, and I won't even deny Adam's claim that I am therefore also a ninkumpoop.  If I'm at a course and it's windy, I do enjoy it, every time, even with the challenges that my game often can't meet; but tell me in advance that I get to play a course called "Windy as Hell at Slicing by the Glen" and I think I might say..."Ah, I think I'll go play 'Decent Walk at Don't Get Pummelled by the Park' instead".

Peter

[Garland Bayley]

My response to the topics question is; Who cares?

The average golfer is a nimkumpoop.

My corollary is that the average golfer learns from golf announcers. Golf announcers gush about perfect windless days playing on immaculate green courses with perfectly true greens.

I guess that makes the golf announcers nincompoops, and me a better speller than Adam.

[Jerry Kluger]

I think most of us do not represent the average golfer.  Maybe I should expand upon my question by noting that most golfers cannot appreciate the fact that most courses would be nearly unplayable in those conditions.  But it goes beyond the conditions as I don't know if they would think it is fun when they have to contend with the severe green undulations or the severe dropoffs on the sides of the greens.  The average golfer may be a dope but maybe that is the reason why so much architecture is unimaginative and waterfalls are admired.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The average golfer is the one your after if you are in the commercial zone. Almost all the 'thoughts' on here are exactly what not to do if you are looking to make a new golf club work. Bandon is unique in that it breaks all the rules.

People in general absolutely hate bad conditions, almost no one unless forced plays in heavy rain and, no wind is probably 99% preferred to lots of wind. People like buggies, green grass, waterfalls. To many the social, the food, the beer eclipses what the course is like.

Back to the question, certainly from a UK perspective the majority of golfers do like links golf and so a UK average golfer would appreciate the Bandon courses. There was a recent magazine golf course rating based on 'the peoples' vote and The Belfry came out top course in England, those same crazy voters would still like OM but they still might take The Belfry over it if they had 1 play.

[Garland Bayley]

From playing with some average golfers at Old MacDonald, I would say they don't appreciated not being able to fire at their target and have the ball stay there or reasonably nearby. They exhibit consternation at why the course is so well thought of when they can't come within 10 strokes of their handicap.

[Jerry Kluger]

Adrian: It is the same golfer who likes the lush green courses who will go to Ireland or Scotland and play in tough conditions but for some reason I don't see them as being willing to do so in the US.

[Carl Rogers]

OM does (might) require a little bit of reading ahead of time.  It does ask the player (viewer) to accept the design evolutions - traditions of the game

Just like if you were not an (building) Architectural Historian buff and you visited St. Peters.  Some amount of understanding of the progression from Bramante to Michelangelo to Borromini to Brunellschi and their stylistic developments along with the Church's transition from the greek cross to the latin cross is needed to take it all in.  Otherwise it becomes too overwhelming.

I do not agree with the word "appreciate".  I prefer the word "understand".

[George Pazin]

Not nincompoops, just different. Some people like classical music, some punk rock, some rap. Fortunately for everyone, Mike Keiser knows what his clients like, and there enough of them to keep the magic going.

[jeffwarne]

Adrian: It is the same golfer who likes the lush green courses who will go to Ireland or Scotland and play in tough conditions but for some reason I don't see them as being willing to do so in the US.

Does the "average golfer" even go to Bandon?
I think not.

The average golfer doesn't travel to a remote location, play in high winds and rain, and pay high green fees (relatively speaking to where most average public golfers play),
....and walk

[Jud_T]

Adrian: It is the same golfer who likes the lush green courses who will go to Ireland or Scotland and play in tough conditions but for some reason I don't see them as being willing to do so in the US.

Jerry,

Given that Bandon has and continues to be a huge success I'd say you're wrong on this. 

[Mike Tanner]

I think JM Evensky makes a good point about human nature. Most people, including the average golfer, don't like to leave a comfort zone. Getting beaten up during a round on a course like OM—one that you don't play every day, windy or not—might make a good story later, but it's a rare character who enjoys the experience while it's happening.

[Sean_A]

Adrian: It is the same golfer who likes the lush green courses who will go to Ireland or Scotland and play in tough conditions but for some reason I don't see them as being willing to do so in the US.

Does the "average golfer" even go to Bandon?
I think not.

The average golfer doesn't travel to a remote location, play in high winds and rain, and pay high green fees (relatively speaking to where most average public golfers play),
....and walk

Cha-ching.  I don't think folks at GCA.com have any grip on the average golfer.  Some of you guys spend more money in a week long trip than the average golfer does in a year on golf.  

Ciao

[Jerry Kluger]

Jud: I realize that Bandon is relatively new but my experience has been that I meet far more people who are taking trips across the Atlantic to play golf as compared to those going to Bandon.  And those individuals are prepared to play in the rain, wind, etc.

I really didn't feel that I was beaten up when I played the courses at Bandon.  Sure, I might have a really bad hole but I felt that the courses allowed me to play at my level and the main reason was that I didn't try to do something that was beyond my ability.  Let me put it this way: my scores at Bandon with 25 MPH winds would probably be better than my scores at Doral Blue with 10 MPH winds. 

[Ivan Lipko]

Everyone I have talked to admits that the Bandon courses are some of the best they have ever played and a truly enjoyable experience. But I don't really talk about GCA with average golfers, though.

[Bruce Katona]

For those in the business of attempting to earn a living in the world of golf, customer service and customer satisfaction are keys, as Adrian aptly stated.  It is far easier (and less expensive) to keep a customer than to lose a customer and have to generate a replacement.

Here in this part of the world, the customer is looking for:
1. Nice teeing ground with lots of grass
2. Greens that are green and smooth (speed is less important)
3. Nicely mown fairways
4. A course that looking difficult to play buts is receptive to scoring.
5. Frequent appearances by the cute beverage cart girl.
6. Hitting 3 good shots/round to bring them back
7. Not losing lots of golf balls during play

If we can do these 7 things we have customer retention.  A good pace of play is nice but slow play will be tolerated if #5 is available.

[Jerry Kluger]

Bruce: I take it that your frequent trips to Hooters are explained as employee recruiting.