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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« on: July 05, 2011, 12:44:03 PM »
This is an 18-lesson series designed to promote discussion amongst golf architecture fans.  The use of Gen (ret.) Colin Powell's Leadership Primer is used only for this discussion and not profit or personal gain.

Yeah I get it, Lesson TWO was kind of dull.  It's also common sense that one would require a leader or manager on site to be aware of issues.  I think where some guys miss the boat on Lesson TWO is getting "comfortable" with their managerial skills or thinking that "beating up" your subordinates is the way to accomplish anything.

With that, Lesson THREE!  This one is sure to spark debate.  

Lesson THREE

Don't be buffaloed by experts and elites. Experts often possess more data than judgment. Elites can become so inbred that they produce hemophiliacs who bleed to death as soon as they are nicked by the real world.

As companies get bigger, they often forget who "brung them to the dance": things like all-hands involvement, egalitarianism, informality, market intimacy, daring, risk, speed, agility. Policies that emanate from ivory towers often have an adverse impact on the people out in the field who are fighting the wars or bringing in the revenues. Real leaders are vigilant and combative in the face of these trends.

I absolutely love this one from Gen Powell.  It speaks to the lethargic nature of our modern society.  Sometimes--all the time--it's about who can get the job done without pomp, drama, and circumstance.

Please discuss.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 12:51:04 PM by Ben Sims »

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2011, 02:14:51 PM »
Ben:

Unconventional nines and hole arrangements -- a few come immediately to mind:

-- Doak's back-to-back par 3s at Pacific Dunes, and Mackenzie's at Cypress Point;

-- Langford's 5-3-5-3-5 stretch of five holes (#s 9 through 13) at Lawsonia (Links).

All were dictated by the lay of land, when forcing a more conventional arrangement of holes may have lessened the routing and overall experience of the course.

Maybe Merion East's back-nine par 34 qualifies as well, as might the 5-5 finish at Baltusrol (Lower).

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2011, 02:50:39 PM »
Phil:

What you're referring to there is more about defying conventional wisdom than about listening to folks in ivory towers.

I am not sure where to go with this topic.  What are the Ivory Towers of golf course architecture?  Magazine rankings?  :P  Golf Club Atlas?   ???

I would agree that there are a lot of golf organizations and associations that helped to escalate the cost of golf course development over the past 20 years.  I'll pass the baton to Mike Young on that part of it.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 03:04:06 PM »
Tom:

This is the phrase in Ben's initial post that made me think of those examples:

"Policies that emanate from ivory towers often have an adverse impact on the people out in the field who are fighting the wars or bringing in the revenues."

Ivory tower thinking is, in my experience, often conventional wisdom, which suggests that routings on golf courses shouldn't include back-to-back par 3s, or a five-hole stretch without the game's most common hole -- a par 4 (or ending a championship course like Baltusrol with two par 5s). Defying the conventional wisdom (or ivory tower thinking) comes from being "out in the field," i.e., intimately knowing that the land at Lawsonia best yielded that five-hole stretch, or as in your case at PacDunes, two par 3s in a row.


Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2011, 03:28:10 PM »
Tom - how about Augusta? In both life in general and golf, the rulers (and members) of Augusta could be considered part of the ivory tower or elite. Their policies (most particularly in regards to maintenance and green speeds) have certainly influenced what the hoi polloi think about golf. Those maintenance policies could be argued to have had an adverse impact on us regular golfers (those in the field) by dramatically increasing the cost of a round of golf. And many of us think they have departed from what made the Masters what it is by adding trees, rough, etc.

Or what Mike Keiser? He would be the example of the one took Powell's advice. I'm sure there were plenty of experts and data that told him not to build Bandon Dunes.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 03:45:17 PM »
Mike Y (or Ben Hogan, or Colin Powell) might say: "You have to dig it out of the dirt".  In gca terms, I guess that means starting with a shovel in your hands, and learning the art and craft of design from the ground up, a foot soldier moving up the ranks as it were, with each step on the journey adding experience to idealism and the practical to the theoretical.  The trouble with the analogy of course is that it explains/characterizes the careers of several esteemed architects (including those who post here), but certainly not all of them. If CB Macdonald (or any of the great 'amateurs') ever had a shovel in their hands, I haven't seen the pictures; and I doubt that many of the ODGs ever considered themselves 'foot soldiers', even at the very beginning of their careers. I guess that's why those old 'generals' always had a grizzled sergeant around, i.e. to get things done and keep them from making fools of themselves.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 03:48:09 PM by PPallotta »

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 04:05:17 PM »
Mike Y (or Ben Hogan, or Colin Powell) might say: "You have to dig it out of the dirt".  In gca terms, I guess that means starting with a shovel in your hands, and learning the art and craft of design from the ground up, a foot soldier moving up the ranks as it were, with each step on the journey adding experience to idealism and the practical to the theoretical.  The trouble with the analogy of course is that it explains/characterizes the careers of several esteemed architects (including those who post here), but certainly not all of them. If CB Macdonald (or any of the great 'amateurs') ever had a shovel in their hands, I haven't seen the pictures; and I doubt that many of the ODGs ever considered themselves 'foot soldiers', even at the very beginning of their careers. I guess that's why those old 'generals' always had a grizzled sergeant around, i.e. to get things done and keep them from making fools of themselves.

Peter

Peter - more apropos I think would be guys like Crump or Fownes who may have sought advice from others but did their own thing.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2011, 06:14:54 PM »
Steve:

I've never seen a picture of Crump with a shovel in his hands, either.

Of course, I was with a photographer just last week who had me POSING with a shovel -- unnaturally, at that.  So you should never believe what you see in the magazines.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2011, 06:19:05 PM »
"Don't be buffaloed by experts and elites. Experts often possess more data than judgment. Elites can become so inbred that they produce hemophiliacs who bleed to death as soon as they are nicked by the real world."

That's pretty good for a lot of things.  Corporate America is full of just such as described above.  Would we have half of the issues we now have with the economy if the CEO's and others were spending their own money like the entrepreneur?  No.  Look at the elitism in golf.  Walk in a new upscale resort or private club development and see the air of the golf professionals vs. going in a small mom and pop shop.  
The best place I have found to find the real experts is the conferences like Crittenton etc.  Have you ever noticed that most of the people there(not all) are working for corporate companies and are on expense account; there to see their buddies.  Same for NGCOA.  With big design firms ,have many experts have you seen that have never had to sell a job?  It's a different outlook when you  just ride the coattails of some of the signatures(also exceptions here as well).   But the main thing pseudo-experts and elites need is experts because they all thrive on each other.  For example the architects and builders. They feed each other.  How many construction companies have worked under some of the signature architects and each time they changed the company the same experts were right there running it.  
This business is not rocket science and yet via experts we have made into a complicated mess.  Real expertise is made when you are spending your own money and not that of the company you work for.  Just take the average elite golf development of the last 25 years. It is all bank money borrowed from financial experts, loaned to development experts, and bailed our by more experts.  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2011, 09:54:58 PM »
How many people in a service industry ever made money by saying less is more?  Golf is a unique hobby/game due to its appeal to blue collar America while remaining true to its white collar stereotype.  In that respect, it has always been about keeping up with the joneses.  Everyone wanted greener, faster, prettier, lobster served on silver while under a shower head being fed by a 3 inch pipe.  You know, the good stuff.

This lesson by Gen Powell--in my mind--speaks to the how fat and slow the golf business became after the 80's and 90's.  I call it the self-licking ice cream cone.  Associations and conventions and the newest and greatest costs money, lots of money.  My opinion is that the focus went off of the golfer and the courses and went towards the equipment, the amenities, and the extras.  We had experts telling us how it should be done when those experts had direct financial interest in how their product sold and not how the golfer or the courses reacted to those products. 

Gen Powell really strikes a chord with me when he speaks of market intimacy, daring, speed, and agility.  For so long the prevailing "daring" was how to make it bigger and shinier than the last guy.  Speed and agility now means adaptability in design, knowing limitations, maximizing maintenance dollars, providing quality design and turf for the client.  Lots of Ivory towers and pretentiousness at the now failing CCFAD.  The truly great golf courses never needed those things.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2011, 07:23:34 AM »
How many people in a service industry ever made money by saying less is more?  Golf is a unique hobby/game due to its appeal to blue collar America while remaining true to its white collar stereotype.  In that respect, it has always been about keeping up with the joneses.  Everyone wanted greener, faster, prettier, lobster served on silver while under a shower head being fed by a 3 inch pipe.  You know, the good stuff.


Oh, you are talking about KPMG and golf in eastern Europe.  Why didn't you just say so?

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2011, 11:58:45 AM »
How many people in a service industry ever made money by saying less is more?  Golf is a unique hobby/game due to its appeal to blue collar America while remaining true to its white collar stereotype.  In that respect, it has always been about keeping up with the joneses.  Everyone wanted greener, faster, prettier, lobster served on silver while under a shower head being fed by a 3 inch pipe.  You know, the good stuff.


Oh, you are talking about KPMG and golf in eastern Europe.  Why didn't you just say so?

Hmm.  I'm a bit lost on that one Tom.  Could you please expound on the jest?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2011, 12:01:27 PM »
Ben,
Just look up one of the KPMG conferences....there are more experts at that conference than anywhere in the world...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2011, 11:02:03 PM »


-- Langford's 5-3-5-3-5 stretch of five holes (#s 9 through 13) at Lawsonia (Links).


The sequence continues with a 3 at 14. Six holes in a row without a par four and most don't notice.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2011, 11:06:52 PM »
Ben:

KPMG holds a bunch of conferences regarding the expansion of golf into new markets, and consults with potential owners.  They too often preach the highest of high end development for places like Bulgaria and Romania and Cyprus, where there aren't many golfers to support it!

They are like the National Golf Foundation, except they're collecting fees along the way.

[Modified to prevent lawsuits!]
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 10:35:04 AM by Tom_Doak »

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2011, 11:42:14 PM »
I don't mean to be incredulous, but you're kidding right?  Wow!  I learn something new everyday.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 10:56:14 AM by Ben Sims »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2011, 10:33:25 AM »
Well, I may have overstated it a bit ... in fact I should probably retract my first post as they're the suing kind ... but that's the gist of it.  They are experts at telling you how to spend your money, but they work for a fee, not for a % of the profits.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2011, 11:22:29 AM »
They are experts at telling you how to spend your money, but they work for a fee, not for a % of the profits.

First lesson for newly minted MBA future scumbag bankers to learn.  Be wary of investment advice from those with no skin in the game....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2011, 08:07:21 PM »
Jud:

Lesson Two, for advanced students:  Also beware of guys who say they have skin in the game, as they may really have more side bets on the other side of the ledger.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2011, 08:17:06 PM »
Yes,

We call this the "talking your book" crowd...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2011, 09:32:36 PM »
It's a sad and beautiful world, isn't it? And a tad too complicated for this sluggish brain of mine. (I still think a person makes money by creating/doing something that someone wants).  I think more than ever a leader needs ideals. Platitudes and ethical truisms are fine, I guess, but only if a leader has a commitment to putting them first when the going gets tough. And who ever really knows if he's got what it takes until the moment -- the temptation - comes.  I know that I've failed the moment more times than I care to remember.

Peter

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2011, 09:58:56 PM »
Peter:

I think ideals are good -- the foundation of great leadership. But I think that also has to be combined with a real committed sense of what's practical, and can be achieved with the resources -- be it people, money, stuff -- available to you.

I often see those in leadership with tremendous idealism and no practical sense of how to get things done. Conversely, I also see leaders making decisions for the sake of making them, with no clear target or sense of greater purpose. The really good leaders combine the two.


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2011, 10:04:25 PM »
Jud:

Lesson Two, for advanced students:  Also beware of guys who say they have skin in the game, as they may really have more side bets on the other side of the ledger.

Amen.

What i really like is the Toro and John Deere guys now supporting the organizations that are promoting themselves over the customers of these same vendors.  Seems they would figure such out.  And I have a really good feeling they are close to doing such...but they should have known.

Golf is the one thing that has always been able to attract investment from sophisticated investors that would normally not do such deals.  If you recall the day that Callaway went public.  I could only get a broker to get me 200 shares and that was hard....I think I doubled and out in less than 6 hours.  Then we even had a grip company ( Danny Edwards or something) go public.  It's like jock sniffers.  But anyway, golf is just not the complicated industry that people have tried to make it in order to make more from it.  Suppose you local sandwich shop was inundated with the consultants and advise that is out there for the average golf course in America.  There would be no sandwich shops or local small neighborhood bars.  They took a game and made a business.  Thats what the MBA's did. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 10:10:22 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2011, 10:07:22 PM »
It's a sad and beautiful world, isn't it? And a tad too complicated for this sluggish brain of mine. (I still think a person makes money by creating/doing something that someone wants).  I think more than ever a leader needs ideals. Platitudes and ethical truisms are fine, I guess, but only if a leader has a commitment to putting them first when the going gets tough. And who ever really knows if he's got what it takes until the moment -- the temptation - comes.  I know that I've failed the moment more times than I care to remember.

Peter

Peter P,

You made me think of this with your 1st comment.  I think this captures the helplessness one feels at times when viewing current world events

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMHTjkCJews&feature=related

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golf Architecture by Colin Powell: Lesson THREE
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2011, 10:09:04 PM »
You're right, Phil.  I think I stressed ideals because they are so much more ephemeral than money and power, and so easily get lost in the shuffle/balance.

Peter