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David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2011, 05:12:53 PM »
While I realize it is natural to romanticize faraway places and sentimentalize days gone by, the direction this thread had taken is remarkable.

Can anyone offer one shred of evidence that the opening of Kingsbarns has, in any way, damaged the golf economy or the "local clubs" in Fife? Have the golf clubs on the Ayrshire coast been damaged in anyway by their proximity to Turnberry? If you asked the Club Secretary at Western Gailes whether or not his club sees more visitor revenue because it is relatively close to Turnberry, what do you think he would say?

The vast majority of locals in the Highlands are thrilled the Scottish Open is being held at Castle Stuart. Tickets sales are ahead of when it was held in past years in Loch Lomond. The hospitality pavilions are sold out.

Local golf clubs, who operate on a very thin margin and are dependent upon visitor fees to break even, are already seeing an uptick in revenue from the new golfing visitors that Castle Stuart is bringing to the Highlands. In May, I spoke with a local restauranteur who said he is having his best spring ever and is sure CS has brought him new business.

I found all this fussing over local and visiting golfers curious. Hasn't golf tourism been part of the Scottish economy for 100 years? Didn't Joyce Wethered and her family summer in Scotland in the 1920's? What else keeps golf affordable for the average Scot but the revenue from visitor green fees and overseas memberships?.

Unlike my good friend Mike Whitaker, I do not believe golf tourism is a zero sum game. New golfers (and traveling golfers) are born every year. Millions of people around the world will see the Scottish Open on TV this week. There is no doubt in my mind that some of them, who likely know little about golf in the Highlands, will say to themselves, "that looks fantastic, I want to visit there soon." When they get there, they won't just play CS, they will also play some rounds at courses such as Nairn, Moray, Brora, Dornoch, Golspie, etc. They will not come just from the U.S. They will come from Holland, Germany, Finland, France, Japan, Korea, etc.                

I could not disagree more with RJ Daley's statement ("50pounds a loop for a few caddies isn't worth the overall decline of the local culture and traditions, along with the altered balance of the local economy to survive and evolve on the will of its own native people's decisions, not American corporate CCFAD models, IMHO, of course."). The construction of CS created 20 or more good paying jobs for 12-24 months. There are another 20-25 jobs on the grounds crew. There are jobs in the clubhouse. How many jobs will there be for the locals once the full resort is complete? 50? 100? More?

To describe Mark Parsinen's efforts at CS as creating some sort of "American corporate CCFAD model" is a rather grotesque mischaracterization of what he has set out to accomplish there. Mr. Parsinen and his colleagues have chosen to invest millions of pounds Scotland and golf there will be all the better for it.      
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 05:55:39 PM by David_Tepper »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2011, 05:20:18 PM »
Ask the folks who use to live on Kiawah Island or Hilton Head how much they love the big beautiful CCFAD and resort courses in their area. They can't afford to play them... and, they can't afford to live there anymore because increased property taxes forced them to move.

It's the American way:  the rich get richer... the poor get poorer.


Like my good friend Mr. Daley says... ask the folks who owned local shops in the small towns surrounding a Wal-Mart how much they benefited from all the customer traffic brought into the area. Fool's Gold indeed!


Sad. Not true at all. I hope our overseas friends don't believe this.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2011, 05:21:05 PM »
Well said David.  I would love to see the before and after numbers.  I think it will bring more golfers North to the benefit of the other clubs- lets hope it doesn't have the affect of raising other fees in the area that some fear.  If you travel all that way you will play as much golf in that area as you can, no??  I do not have the experience to say if that will or wont happen.
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2011, 07:02:43 PM »
"Scottish Open venue can help renew the connection between strategy and top-level golf"

"the course embodies all that is strategically intelligent about the greatest game of all."

http://sport.scotsman.com/golf/Scottish-Open-venue-can-help.6795030.jp

« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 07:05:18 PM by David_Tepper »

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2011, 07:28:24 PM »
David - You are an expert on the area and I am going to defer to your expertise and try to acquire your optimism for all of this. All things being equal, I would love to see golf in the Highlands flourish and I hope CS can be a catalyst to make that happen. It's just that my experience shows that where money is concerned if you pull on one side it will shrink on the other. Maybe CS will help grow the entire golfing pie in the UK, not just take a bigger slice of the existing pie. Let's hope so.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2011, 07:54:43 PM »
Mike -

I do not claim to be an expert on much of anything! I can only try to relate what read in the media from sources I consider to be authoritative and I have seen & heard in the Highlands over the past 8 years.

I do believe projects such as CS can and will grow golfing tourism in the Highlands and that such growth will not come at the expense of golf tourism elsewhere in Scotland.

FYI, starting in September, there will be daily air service between Amsterdam and Inverness. My guess is there will be at least a few Dutch golfers on those flights who have never been to the Highlands (or to Scotland) before.

DT     

   

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2011, 08:52:07 PM »
Michael - I've gone to Ireland/Scotland every year (sometimes twice a year) for the past 25+ years.  I've played most all of them many times.  The draw to the highlands for me is CS, cause I've never seen it.  Many of the other guys I'm taking are first-timers and the draw for them is Dornoch (we're playing twice).  You are right, if CS were not there I would have substituted Brora, Golspie, Skibo, Lossiemouth, Tain, Nairn - all deserved local venues.  We are also playing Boat of Garden and the west coast biggies.  JC

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2011, 09:06:11 PM »
Michael - I've gone to Ireland/Scotland every year (sometimes twice a year) for the past 25+ years.  I've played most all of them many times.  The draw to the highlands for me is CS, cause I've never seen it.  Many of the other guys I'm taking are first-timers and the draw for them is Dornoch (we're playing twice).  You are right, if CS were not there I would have substituted Brora, Golspie, Skibo, Lossiemouth, Tain, Nairn - all deserved local venues.  We are also playing Boat of Garden and the west coast biggies.  JC

I can't wait to get your feedback on CS. It is a truly a stunningly beautiful place. You've got the creds to put it in proper perspective. I'm probably just overreacting to the American invasion.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2011, 10:07:08 PM »
There seems to be some other local points of view on the whole question of new golf course development, CCFAD - Trumpian style.  The anti-crowd are nothing new in development of all manner and locales.  But, let's not just ignore that there is controversy and not a universal willingness to accept the development arguments and justifications, economic or cultural.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk-MHQE2xPQ&feature=player_embedded

You can surf the 'suggestions' sidebar if you like to see more outtakes and info...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2011, 10:34:01 PM »
RJ Daley -

What has Castle Stuart got to do with "Trumpian style?" If anything, CS is anti-Trumpian in conception, process & style. There have been multiple threads on this site about Trump's project near Aberdeen. Perhaps you should direct your comments on that project to one of those threads. ;)

DT

   

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2011, 11:00:06 PM »
     I for one have the DVR set for tomorrow morning and am looking forward to seeing the course.  Would look forward to the discussion tomorrow evening after the 1st round.

Jason

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2011, 01:02:22 AM »
John C-S,

Before you blast Michael for having comments that are "out of place and lack any attempt at understanding..." you better do a little homework. This course was designed for: the visitor, open expanses so as not to beat up the players, offer "infinity views" and vistas to arouse the senses, host a major championship and become another Turnberry or Gleneagles in scale. Marketing has driven this project and while the product looks good, there are some serious repercussions being glossed over by many.
 

CS, on the scale being discussed, has NO CHANCE of financial success without foreign play at high rates. Michael is DEAD ON with the damaging price creep in fees! I'm a meamber at RD. When you come right out of the gate charging almost DOUBLE what the local, top 20 course in the world charges, in a remote area not used to having fees in that stratosphere...it creates problems. Some will argue that it's good for the surrounding courses and business concerns. What it leads to, very quickly I might add, is an unsustainable, overpriced region that the locals can not afford to live in. Doesn't that just sound wonderful ?!

Some awful-looking, oversized housing units, which have some of your lauded principles involved,  just recently was given the go- ahead right next door to RD. It's all about money my friend! The community was not for it....where is the respect and taste? If one claims they are friends of those locals...where's the common sense to present something more complimentary?

This is how it starts...and before you know it, the area is crapped up and changed. It sad, disgusting and totally unnecessary. As an American who loves the Highlands for WHAT IT IS, I'm very concerned about the trending developing up there. It's wrong and greed is the cause. I applaud the others on this site who don't have the blinders on and question what's happening.

I'm all for responsible, intelligent development. Profit at any price, destroying the very things that make a region special and unique, is another matter entirely.

Cheers,
Kris

So someone gets an approval for some god awful ugly housing near RD and that's castle Stuart's fault?

I've not been to castle Stuart as I prefer the older low key places, but it sounds like they've made a lot of right moves.
A business plan for a new course has to pay the bills.

If you built RD from scratch, no doubt they'd ahve to charge higher fees OR SELL REAL ESTATE NEXT IT (no wait they're doing that now) ;) ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2011, 02:40:35 AM »
RJ Daley - I'm guessing you do not know Inverness, it's no quaint little town with a couple of friendly member clubs and a golfing culture. It maybe the capital if the Highlands but Inverness is a city visitors pass through to get to nice places. The nearest golf of merit is Nairn (16 miles) and RD at 43 miles.

Jonathon - how many trips to England?
Cave Nil Vino

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2011, 03:45:35 AM »
Mark - maybe 15 to England/Scotland and 20 to Ireland...

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2011, 04:01:41 AM »
I don't have much of an opinion on the subject one way or the other so long as the land is not in some way very special.  A golf course is a golf course is a golf course.  It doesn't make much difference when there are so many of all sorts to choose from.  Although, I am not so sure there is an infinite supply of golfers (sounds like infinite growth?) that will pour into Scotland.  So my issue from the PoV of a business is high prices cutting off long time, tried and tested visitors in favour of the unknown.  However, that may have nothing to do with new fancy do da clubs popping up in recent years.  Prices for top notch golf have been rising at an alarming pace for 15 years.  Part of that is costs associated with trying to stay ahead of the competition (in GB&I that usually means better conditions as Americans understand the concept), part of it is greed and part of it is controlling visitor numbers (which pricing does very well especially in terms of locals playing).   

Whitty, I may be wrong, but it sounds like you are going through a crisis of not wanting to be around to many touristas while on golfing sojourns.  Maybe you have gotten used to England and its relative calm compared to Scotland and Ireland?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2011, 05:58:30 AM »
48 of the 78 morning starters are currently under par with three tied for the lead on -5.  Any idea what the weather is like?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2011, 06:18:35 AM »
Met Office currently showing fine and 10mph north easterly rising to 15mph mid afternoon and dropping late afternoon to 9mph south easterly. Weekend warm, wet and virtually no wind. Ideal scoring conditions.
Cave Nil Vino

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2011, 07:20:52 AM »
So it's going to get easier?  Winning scor could well be -20 or better.

Interesting to see C Montomerie and M Campbell in the current top 10.  Can't imagine they've shared top 10 slots for a good few years.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2011, 07:52:11 AM »
So it's going to get easier?  Winning scor could well be -20 or better.

Interesting to see C Montomerie and M Campbell in the current top 10.  Can't imagine they've shared top 10 slots for a good few years.

Westwood is -8 through 15 holes! It could take -30 to win!!!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2011, 09:36:39 AM »

Mark - maybe 15 to England/Scotland and 20 to Ireland...


In my next life,I'm coming back as you.

Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0

Anthony Gray

Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2011, 11:16:50 AM »
I'm reluctant to do it, but I'm going to stick my head in the noose about Castle Stuart one more time...

Castle Stuart is a beautiful course and it will look magnificent on television. It should... it was created with photography and TV in mind in order to "sell" it on the web, in magazines and on the tube.

However... Castle Stuart is NOT a links course. The only thing it has in common with RStG is that they are both hard by the sea and are subject to wide variances in the wind.

Castle Stuart will not provide a tuneup for RStG as it has much more in common Arcadia Bluffs in Michigan than it does with RStG.


  What makes it not a links course?

  Anthony


Anthony Gray

Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2011, 11:31:41 AM »
John C-S,

Before you blast Michael for having comments that are "out of place and lack any attempt at understanding..." you better do a little homework. This course was designed for: the visitor, open expanses so as not to beat up the players, offer "infinity views" and vistas to arouse the senses, host a major championship and become another Turnberry or Gleneagles in scale. Marketing has driven this project and while the product looks good, there are some serious repercussions being glossed over by many.
 

CS, on the scale being discussed, has NO CHANCE of financial success without foreign play at high rates. Michael is DEAD ON with the damaging price creep in fees! I'm a meamber at RD. When you come right out of the gate charging almost DOUBLE what the local, top 20 course in the world charges, in a remote area not used to having fees in that stratosphere...it creates problems. Some will argue that it's good for the surrounding courses and business concerns. What it leads to, very quickly I might add, is an unsustainable, overpriced region that the locals can not afford to live in. Doesn't that just sound wonderful ?!

Some awful-looking, oversized housing units, which have some of your lauded principles involved,  just recently was given the go- ahead right next door to RD. It's all about money my friend! The community was not for it....where is the respect and taste? If one claims they are friends of those locals...where's the common sense to present something more complimentary?

This is how it starts...and before you know it, the area is crapped up and changed. It sad, disgusting and totally unnecessary. As an American who loves the Highlands for WHAT IT IS, I'm very concerned about the trending developing up there. It's wrong and greed is the cause. I applaud the others on this site who don't have the blinders on and question what's happening.

I'm all for responsible, intelligent development. Profit at any price, destroying the very things that make a region special and unique, is another matter entirely.

Cheers,
Kris


  This is why Cruden Bay will always be a treat.It is not going to change.

  Anthony


David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2011, 12:04:44 PM »
"This is why Cruden Bay will always be a treat.It is not going to change."

Anthony -

Hasn't Cruden Bay already changed? Haven't they built a big modern clubhouse there? Didn't the club sell land to developers who have built big modern homes overlooking the course?  

As a point of information, the development Kris Shreiner is referring to has no relation to the Royal Dornoch Golf Club and will not be visible from roughly 90% of the course. It will marginally be visible from the remaining 10% of the course.

DT
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 12:12:55 PM by David_Tepper »

Giles Payne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open at Castle Stuart
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2011, 12:06:47 PM »
I think the point is that it is not a true links course because, like Kingsbarns, it is built on recycled farmland and not actual links land. Its playing characteristics will therefore not be truely links like.

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