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Mark_Rowlinson

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Or are great courses only found on well-draining soil?

Tom_Doak

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2011, 02:48:05 PM »
Sixteen of the top 20 courses in the world are built on sand.

The four that weren't are Augusta National, Oakmont, Pebble Beach, and Merion.  The first two are by far the tougher soils in that group.

So, it's possible to build a great course on tough soils, but it's a lot harder.

David_Tepper

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2011, 02:49:45 PM »
The Bayonne (NJ) Golf Club was built on a dump.

http://www.bayonnegolfclub.com/video_showcase/

Mike_Young

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2011, 02:53:07 PM »
Sixteen of the top 20 courses in the world are built on sand.

The four that weren't are Augusta National, Oakmont, Pebble Beach, and Merion.  The first two are by far the tougher soils in that group.

So, it's possible to build a great course on tough soils, but it's a lot harder.

TD,
It would be interesting see how ANGC faired if it was played on bermuda.  I think the question as much as soil is grass.  How many of the top 20 are bermuda grass?  And how many are cool season grasses?  I don't know but I have an idea.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2011, 02:57:17 PM »
C&C did a great job at Cuscowilla in Georgia; bermuda grass over red clay. They even have red clay in the bunkers!

Mike,

What were the soils like at Longshadow? God knows that project turned out great.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2011, 03:04:01 PM »
David
I would assume they brought in enough sand to make it a well draining soil - Bayonne doesn't count
We capped 3 holes at wolf point the rest are heavy native texas soils with bermuda
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2011, 03:14:04 PM »
Sixteen of the top 20 courses in the world are built on sand.

The four that weren't are Augusta National, Oakmont, Pebble Beach, and Merion.  The first two are by far the tougher soils in that group.

So, it's possible to build a great course on tough soils, but it's a lot harder.

TD,
It would be interesting see how ANGC faired if it was played on bermuda.  I think the question as much as soil is grass.  How many of the top 20 are bermuda grass?  And how many are cool season grasses?  I don't know but I have an idea.


Mike:

I'm not looking at the list right now, but Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath are the spoilers for your argument.  Bermuda fairways can be just great on sand, as all the sand belt courses in Melbourne have proven over the years.

Mike_Young

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2011, 03:24:05 PM »
Sixteen of the top 20 courses in the world are built on sand.

The four that weren't are Augusta National, Oakmont, Pebble Beach, and Merion.  The first two are by far the tougher soils in that group.

So, it's possible to build a great course on tough soils, but it's a lot harder.

TD,
It would be interesting see how ANGC faired if it was played on bermuda.  I think the question as much as soil is grass.  How many of the top 20 are bermuda grass?  And how many are cool season grasses?  I don't know but I have an idea.


Mike:

I'm not looking at the list right now, but Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath are the spoilers for your argument.  Bermuda fairways can be just great on sand, as all the sand belt courses in Melbourne have proven over the years.
Just wondered... 20 percent of the top 20 are not on sand and 10 percent are bermuda. 
I love bermuda fairways and really like the new bermuda greens but I have a theory:  Subconsciously we play better golf in the type of weather where cool season grasses thrive.  It just fits better with golf.  Playing a great golf course in the middle of summer in 95 degree heat has an affect on how great one thinks it is.  JMO.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2011, 03:26:40 PM »

Just wondered... 20 percent of the top 20 are not on sand and 10 percent are bermuda. 
I love bermuda fairways and really like the new bermuda greens but I have a theory:  Subconsciously we play better golf in the type of weather where cool season grasses thrive.  It just fits better with golf.  Playing a great golf course in the middle of summer in 95 degree heat has an affect on how great one thinks it is.  JMO.


I would agree with you there.  It seems you travel north to play most of your golf.  Also, I believe that the enjoyment of a course has something to do with being able to walk it relatively easily ... and that's a chore when it's 95.

Mike_Young

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2011, 03:43:23 PM »

Just wondered... 20 percent of the top 20 are not on sand and 10 percent are bermuda. 
I love bermuda fairways and really like the new bermuda greens but I have a theory:  Subconsciously we play better golf in the type of weather where cool season grasses thrive.  It just fits better with golf.  Playing a great golf course in the middle of summer in 95 degree heat has an affect on how great one thinks it is.  JMO.


I would agree with you there.  It seems you travel north to play most of your golf.  Also, I believe that the enjoyment of a course has something to do with being able to walk it relatively easily ... and that's a chore when it's 95.

you are correct.  Fat guys don't like to walk in 95 degree heat and humidity. I play a lot of golf up north and not much in the south in the summer.  I tried to walk 18 holes last week and it was 96 degrees.  After 16 holes I was about done and when I got home at 7pm I fell alsleep until the next morning....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2011, 04:36:13 PM »
Walton Heath plays like a proper heath and when it's dry an inland links, however it is situated on London clay which is usually pretty poor for a free draining course.
Cave Nil Vino

Doug Siebert

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2011, 02:38:39 AM »
David,

I don't know the situation with Bayonne (i.e., how old the dump is) but don't they typically do a LOT of work drainage-wise on such sites before it is permitted to be used for another purpose, because they have to know where the runoff and groundwater is going, to avoid having it be contaminated by whatever is in the dump?  Even in a modern landfill, while they tell you you can't toss hazardous materials, there are surely too many people who through ignorance or stupidity still do toss out stuff like paint thinner, broken fluorescent tubes, LiON batteries, and so on.  So they have to be sure the water won't get down in there, and the only way to be sure of that is to insure it goes elsewhere.

In some ways it might be easier building on a dump that's been capped and had its drainage planned and managed.  Even if it wasn't capped with something golf course friendly like sand, it may still be better than a "virgin" site that's compacted clay.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2011, 06:22:01 AM »
Seeing as it mentions 2 of the above points, here is a 10 point guide to building a world class golf course (originally published in Golf Digest Ireland)...

1. Hire a professional golf course architect
Like in any career, there are good golf course architects and there are not so good ones. But there is one thing for certain: playing golf professionally for a living has no relationship whatsoever with being able to design a high quality golf course. Firstly, very few golf professionals actually design the courses they put their names to: They certainly may have ideas but the routing, the detail, the finished product – someone else is usually doing that. Secondly, if you discount Ben Crenshaw (who shares equal billing with his partner Bill Coore), then only 5% of the World Top 100 courses have been designed by a professional golfer, even nominally. So their strike rate isn’t particularly good either.

2. Build on sand
To a golf architect, getting the chance to design a course on a sandy site is like being offered the keys to the kingdom. It is no coincidence that golf was first played on the links of Scotland: The same qualities that render dunes useless as arable farming land make them ideal for golf. Firm and fast conditions are easy to obtain and most importantly of all, the free draining nature of the soil means that any features can be laid out naturally without having to be forced. With a few notable exceptions (Augusta National being one), the world’s best inland courses are also based on sand, from Cypress Point and Pine Valley in the States to the heathland gems of Surrey and the Australian sand-belt courses such as Royal Melbourne.

3. Find the right topography
If you build your course amongst flat fields, the contours will have to be artificially created. Aside from costing more to move earth and generate some interesting undulation, no team is as skilled as nature herself at providing good golfing land. Pick a site with existing mounds, valleys, humps and hollows and the end product should reap the reward. 

4. Remember the natural landscape
The playing area of a golf course will generally take up only a minority of the overall site footprint. Integrating that area in to its natural surroundings is fundamental if golfers are to feel at peace with the landscape they are golfing in. If your golf course is lined with row upon row of real estate then it’s highly unlikely that it will ever get near the world’s top-100; unless - like Pebble Beach – it has its drama on the ocean edge.

5. Don’t compromise for the professionals
Top tour golfers are a different breed to the rest of us and so they need a different, more penal type of golf course to challenge them. But even the courses on the British Open rota only host the elite every eight or nine years. So why do we feel the need to keep on altering them for those four days a decade? And why do we feel the need to build 6,700 metre tees for new courses that are squarely aimed at member and green-fee play and will never even sniff a professional tournament?  Longer rounds, extra cost: Pointless. Pacific Dunes is the only world Top-20 course to be built this century and it plays 6,000 metres from the very back.

6. Build it with cool season grasses
There are very few world Top-100 golf courses that play all year round on warm season grasses such as bermuda or zoysia. Most of the best courses are built in a cool season climate which allows fine grasses such as bent and fescue to thrive, resulting in slicker playing surfaces.

7. Keep the views
Just because you are building an inland golf course doesn’t mean that you need to crowd it out with tree planting. All of the early courses were built with long views in mind, which were crucial in adding to the playability and scale of the site. In recent years, many of the famous heathland courses of England (e.g. Sunningdale) have been cutting down their trees to restore the original open heath whilst some of the classic American courses such as Oakmont have undergone similar tree-clearing exercises. At the seaside, Dooks golf club in Kerry recently removed a large number of pines from the perimeter of their course, opening up some of the most fantastic 360 degree views to be found anywhere. It must have seemed such an obvious decision in hindsight.

8. Spend your maintenance budget on the things that matter
Surveys repeatedly tell us that golfers prioritise good conditioning above all other factors when choosing where they should part with green fees. So we know maintenance is a crucial element in generating business. But for those clubs that have limited funds, the important areas are the fairways, greens and approaches. Spending money on cart paths, flora, car parks and clubhouses won’t make the golf course any better and it is the golf course you want people to be talking about when they leave.
 
9. Make sure it stays open
It perhaps should be beyond mention but you can’t have a world class golf course if it no longer exists. Many fantastic courses have been consigned to the history books, most of them because of depression, war, urban sprawl or adopting the wrong business model. There were 600 closures last year in the USA alone.

10. Build it one hundred years ago
OK, so this is not a particularly easy tip to follow but it rings true. Good sites were ten-a-penny back in the golden age because there were very few planning restrictions. In the last twenty years in particular, new environmental codes have correctly ensured that it has become more difficult to build a golf course on any bit of available land. The old architects also had the advantage of designing in an age where there were fewer preconceptions of how golf courses should look and play. In the current commercial era where money is king, it is far harder to be innovative as the risk of failure is considered a risk not worth taking.

Jud_T

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2011, 08:24:05 AM »
What are the maintenance budgets at Augusta and Oakmont and how would they fare in the ratings without them (and tournament history)?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2011, 10:18:55 AM »
The Bayonne (NJ) Golf Club was built on a dump. .

David,

The amazing thing about Bayonne is that everything on that golf course was imported.

It's a modern day wonder of the golf world, probably the first three dimensional golf course


http://www.bayonnegolfclub.com/video_showcase/

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2011, 10:25:33 AM »
Tom Doak,

What's interesting about NGLA is that they had to import 10,000 truck loads of topsoil.

I've never heard that Shinnecock, Southampton or Sebonack had to cap their soil, so one has to wonder, was the raw land at NGLA sand based  ?

CBM's description of the property in"Scotland's Gift" wasn't so glowing.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2011, 11:40:48 AM »
Mike Nuzzo, displaying my ignorance here but wondering which holes at Wolf Point were sandcapped?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2011, 01:42:35 PM »
Tom Doak,

What's interesting about NGLA is that they had to import 10,000 truck loads of topsoil.

I've never heard that Shinnecock, Southampton or Sebonack had to cap their soil, so one has to wonder, was the raw land at NGLA sand based  ?

CBM's description of the property in"Scotland's Gift" wasn't so glowing.

Patrick:

Some parts of National were complete swamp, I believe, and would have required a lot of fill.

But I can't imagine holes like the first few and last few were anything but sand, since there is nothing but sand 200 feet away on the other side of the property line.

I just think that in the very early 1900's, without a real irrigation system, they had a very difficult time trying to sort out how to establish grass on raw sand.  You couldn't really borrow from the Scots there, because most of their courses up to then had been grass to start with, just grazed down.

Shinnecock, being a bit further inland, is probably a bit more fertile and was more grass-covered to start with -- and, of course, they didn't build the sophisticated course until 1931, when the methods of construction and grow-in were vastly improved.  But National was a real test case, and they struggled with it.  Indeed, it's possible that Macdonald passed on some of the property that is now Sebonack because it was so sandy he didn't think they would be able to grow turf on it.

At Sebonack, when we cleared the trees, we saved all the topsoil we could by shaking out the stumps and then screening it at a central location [the third fairway].  By the time we were done, we'd saved a pile of soil about 40 feet high and 200 feet across at the base!  And ultimately, we decided that was too MUCH topsoil and it would seal up the drainage, so we only used a fraction of it, and buried the rest under the driving range since we were not licensed to sell it as a quarry.   :'(

I don't think that topsoil was in the mix 100 years ago, however; I think it was the byproduct of all the trees that had grown there in the interim.  I tend to believe Macdonald's description of the property as being a big, shrub-covered sandy waste.

Michael George

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2011, 02:27:24 PM »
While I am sure that many of you know better than me, what about Pete Dye Golf Club in Clarksburg, W. Va? 

From the sounds of it in Mr. Dye's book, it sure sounded like the strip mined area and "gob piles" were not a pretty sight and needed significant work.

 
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2011, 02:41:46 PM »
Not as many greats are on Bermuda grass, but that may just be because golf started in the US in the NE and it has more courses (or did, the south and southwest may be taking over)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil McDade

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2011, 02:59:06 PM »
Tom:

What are soils at Crystal Downs? Was that course built on the land available, or were soils moved in to help with its construction?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2011, 05:50:09 PM »
While I am sure that many of you know better than me, what about Pete Dye Golf Club in Clarksburg, W. Va? 

From the sounds of it in Mr. Dye's book, it sure sounded like the strip mined area and "gob piles" were not a pretty sight and needed significant work.


Michael:

I actually worked on site at The Pete Dye Golf Club, for a couple of weeks back in 1985.

There was a very diverse mixture of soils there, but none of it was sand!

Michael George

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2011, 07:10:42 PM »
Tom:

I knew that you worked on Long Cove from your book, which had to be another difficult project. 

Thanks for your reply.  "Anatomy of a Golf Course" is what got me hooked on golf design.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Tony Ristola

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2011, 03:20:14 AM »
How about Cape Breton Highlands. Isn't the place glacial till and peat?

.

David_Elvins

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Re: Which are the greatest courses built on the least promising soil?
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2011, 03:39:00 AM »
The four that weren't are Augusta National, Oakmont, Pebble Beach, and Merion.  The first two are by far the tougher soils in that group.
So, it's possible to build a great course on tough soils, but it's a lot harder.

It is not just harder, but a lot more expensive.  I haven't been to Oakmont but the maintenance budget at the other three courses you mention are extremely high. 

In Australia, the proportion of good courses built on sand is even greater than the US, and I suspect the major reason is the lack of money available to start clubs such as Oakmont, Augusta and Merion on clay soil.  (The only clay course in Australia that is possibly decent is Ellerston, which of course has and unlimited construction and maintenance budget. 
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