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Mike_Young

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Design/Build article
« on: June 28, 2011, 06:50:52 PM »
I been telling ya'll....this is the best thing that can happen for the golf design business and the sooner the better....

Read the Golf Course Industry article:

http://www.golfcourseindustry.com/gci-062811-bob-lohmann-design-build.aspx?List_id=29
Design-build again rears its controversial head

For nearly three decades, if the golf development and renovation fields have dealt with a more controversial subject than “design-build,” GCI columnist Bob Lohmann doesn't know what it would be. But just as the downturn has affected nearly everything we thought we knew about the golf business, so has it changed the way superintendents, course operators, architects and contractors view the design-build option.

BOB LOHMANN
June 28, 2011
For most of the last 30 years, if the golf development and renovation fields have dealt with a more controversial subject than “design-build,” I don’t know what it would be. But just as the current downturn has affected nearly everything we thought we knew about the golf business, so has it changed the way superintendents, course operators, architects and contractors view the design-build option.

Used to be that design-build — the entrusting of both course (re)design and (re)construction to a single entity— was almost taboo. That’s how unpopular and inconceivable it was. I know this first-hand because my company has, since 1984, included a course architecture division (Lohmann Golf Designs) and a course construction division, Golf Creations, founded in 1988.

The conventional wisdom held that a client employed an architect to design, but also to keep an eye on the contractor; the client employed the contractor to do construction, but also to keep any eye on the architect. According to this theory, design-build was almost an open invitation for the single entity to cut corners on quality and inflate costs.

Now, I’ve never happened to buy into this thinking. I’m clearly biased, but I’d argue that I’m in a unique position to see the advantages and disadvantages to the design-build scenario. More on that later.

What’s interesting, and more relevant to the present day, is the shift we’ve seen in how design-build is viewed. For years we scrupulously kept Lohmann Golf Design (LGD) jobs separate from Golf Creations jobs. Our design work was put out to bid and, on the rare occasions that Golf Creations bid on the construction, we did so along with all the other usual suspects under the same rules and guidelines — and I can’t tell you how many jobs we didn’t get because of Golf Creations’ relationship to LGD. That was how the game was played. We expected it and lived with it because, at that time, there were plenty of other construction jobs to bid upon — jobs where we had no hand in the design.  

Well, lo and behold, hardly any new courses are being built in 2011, and renovation jobs are few and far between. Those renovation projects that ARE put out to bid today are both smaller (in size and cost), spread over longer periods — and they are more hotly contested at bid.  Plus, there’s a misperception out there that “contractors are hungry; they’ll do it cheap.” The problem is, the cost of labor, fuel and materials isn’t going down and neither are overall prices. Sure, contractor’s profit margins are shrinking, but not enough to counter the other increases. And when margins shrink it generally has a major impact on quality, especially on longer projects.  

Suddenly, as all these factors take hold, the clear efficiencies of design-build are no longer taboo. They’re even sort of attractive.

Let me talk about one job where we have handled both design and construction. I don’t offer it as any sort of model project. But it does illustrate what’s changing in the business, and why. We’re working at Lake Carroll Golf Course in Lanark, Illinois (near Galena). We did the original master plan years ago, and originally it was to be tackled over 3-5 years, in big chunks.

“Now what’s happened, as a result of the industry downturn and our inability to sell lots, we’ve been nipping at it in little pieces,” says Tim Throop, the superintendent at Lake Carroll. “And the phases are getting smaller. We did all the green surrounds last summer, on the front nine. We’ll do them on 3 to 4 holes this year because there isn’t enough money.”

We did this project as a design-build, meaning we took the LGD-derived master plan and Golf Creations handled construction. On the first project we did the driving range, built a brand-new par-3 and some new tee complexes. The second project included renovating the 15th green, plus green surrounds and bunkers on the front nine.

“I would say the first project went real well,” said Jason Hill, the head professional at Lake Carroll. “We’re not a private club, but we have a Board [of Directors]. The Board changes each year and they have different ideas. The second year we had a couple members that pushed for maybe doing it another way, but we showed them the advantages of design-build and that’s the way we’ve gone forward. I don’t know that I’d do it another way. In fact, we put up a pretty good fight to avoid going the traditional design/bid route.”

Like I said, I’m biased. So I’ll let Jason and Tim make the case.

“It’s pretty simple because you have the guys who designed it right there to do the change, without the change order,” Jason said. “Money-wise, those delays can hurt, and you have to consider all the expenses related to having the architect on site. We got the drawings right up front and there were a lot of changes along the way. But we saved a substantial amount, a minimum of 10-15 percent, just in the drawing phase.”

Every job is different, of course. Things that work over here, won’t work over there. But design-build almost necessarily invites flexibility. As part of the cost-consciousness we were asked to bring to the Lake Carroll project, we farmed a lot of our construction work back to the client.

“We assumed some responsibilities: They’d give us the scope and we’d do the work,” Tim said. “When we renovated the traps, we removed all the sand, the whole crew, superintendent and mechanics. The roto-tilling — instead of paying a guy to do that, we have salary guys do it.”

And let’s be honest: There is risk to the piecemeal approach. These little bits are easier to achieve and can be achieved more efficiently under design-build, but it’s something of a trap. Bunkers are a good example. Once you start doing them, you have to keep going —  you can’t build them 5 years apart. You get inconsistencies in materials from year to year sometimes, and more so over multiple years. If you wait too long, use different materials, and have bunkers of widely varying age, they will look and perform very different from one to the other – which is generally why they were being renovated in the first place!

But you can’t fight these larger forces. The jobs are getting smaller and under the right circumstances, design-build makes sense. I’ll give Jason the last word on this approach: “We’d recommend it to anybody else. We’re not plugging Lohmann, but they came up with the best master plan of the different companies we talked to, and delivered the best product — better than we thought we’d get. If it’s not a good company, design-build isn’t going to work, but then neither will traditional design/bid.”

One last word from me, on bidding. We just bid, solely as a contractor, on a public course renovation (it’s actually park district-owned). The architect attached to the project estimated construction costs at $1.8 million. The lowest bid that came in was $2.5 million.

This column is supposed to be about communication. So, what does that situation communicate to us?

First, that it is difficult for architects to keep a handle on pricing these days, especially given the volatility of the market, union influences, etc.  It’s no different than contractors giving costs without a design — so much can be lost in the interpretation. However, in my view, anyone who handles design-build projects has an inherent understanding of these dynamics and a “built-in” advantage over someone who doesn’t.

Design-build is not the answer to everything. Far from it. But as jobs are spread further over time, and the relationships between architect, contractor and client get longer and longer, it’s definitely something to think about.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2011, 07:31:28 PM »
Just like Flynn, GCA and Toomey&Flynn Golf Course Construction Company.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Ian Andrew

Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2011, 07:57:01 PM »
Stanley Thompson built almost all his designs. I wish I could too.
Intrestingly he also built courses for archicts such as Charles Alison.
Thompson went bankrupt multiple times due to his large overhead.

Not having overhead right now can be the difference between survival and going out of business.

That's why the new dynamic is "independent contractors" who work with the same companies year in and year out.

It may have a different forms, but IMHO the collaborative build will always yield the best results.

Mike_Young

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2011, 08:07:32 PM »
Stanley Thompson built almost all his designs. I wish I could too.
Intrestingly he also built courses for archicts such as Charles Alison.
Thompson went bankrupt multiple times due to his large overhead.

Not having overhead right now can be the difference between survival and going out of business.

That's why the new dynamic is "independent contractors" who work with the same companies year in and year out.

It may have a different forms, but IMHO the collaborative build will always yield the best results.

Agree...
And Ian congrats on your press in golf Inc...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCrosby

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2011, 04:10:14 PM »
Being involved with a master plan that will take five or more years to implement, rebidding the construction work for each phase of the project creates a number of worries. Beyond the additional administrative headaches, the consistency of the finished product is of concern. The detail work done by a contractor in year 1 may not match the detail work of another contractor in year 4.

I can also see advantages to design/build on new courses. I would want my architect knee deep in every phase of the build-out.

On the other hand, I appreciate the fiduciary duty a green chair has to the members that he is getting competitive, arms length pricing. Absent a bidding process, most clubs are going to be uncomfortable taking the archie's number on faith. I don't think Lohmann's article really addresses that question.

Bob

 

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2011, 06:23:05 PM »
It seems that nearly all of the most popular designers on this forum have in house shapers  (Renaissance, Coore/Crenshaw, Hanse, etc.). Certainly, the subtle features they incorporate, especially around the greens, are the details I find elevate their courses above some of their peers.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Mike_Young

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2011, 10:06:19 PM »
Being involved with a master plan that will take five or more years to implement, rebidding the construction work for each phase of the project creates a number of worries. Beyond the additional administrative headaches, the consistency of the finished product is of concern. The detail work done by a contractor in year 1 may not match the detail work of another contractor in year 4.

I can also see advantages to design/build on new courses. I would want my architect knee deep in every phase of the build-out.

On the other hand, I appreciate the fiduciary duty a green chair has to the members that he is getting competitive, arms length pricing. Absent a bidding process, most clubs are going to be uncomfortable taking the archie's number on faith. I don't think Lohmann's article really addresses that question.

Bob




 

Bob,
Before I got into the golf business I was a cabinet maker for several years.  A client would expect you to design and build their kitchen or bookcases.  Then the "certified kitchen designers" came along and would "design" a kitchen and then call the cabinetmaker to make the cabinets and install them. It doubled the price to the clinet but the client never knew it because he did not know where to get them built. Some guys became reliant on the "designer" to get their work.  Others competed with the designer.  The "certified designer" could always use the items you mention above ( fiduciary duty, bidding etc.)to justify his existence and if he was giving work to a cabinetmaker and he gave a price to one of the "designers" customers then the "designer" would never use him again. 
Golf is the same way.  There will be some of each but in the future more and more will see that the effort of the last 50 years to distinguish between the two was the main culprit in destroying the golden goose. 
If an owner can see your past work and he knows you can build it within a specific number then he should be comfortable because in most cases it will be significantly lower than the "architect bid to GC" method.  AGAIN...both will exist but design/build is going ot take off. IMHO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bob Jenkins

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2011, 04:11:00 PM »

Mike,

Although I never have designed or built a golf course, I can speak from the perspective of a lawyer who has practiced in the construction law field. Most of that time has been spent dealing with disputes and so I tend to see trends and also look for what went wrong which resulted in the dispute. More recently I have been involved in more "front end" work, working on the project delivery alternatives. Also, a lot of our work involves representing larger contractors, although we also do some work for owners.

Design - build is, in my opinion and I believe many others, the best project delivery method for many types of project. Foremost in the nature of project are projects that are unique and require some imaginative design work. I would think golf course design and construction, due to each course having unique sites, soils conditions, target markets etc. would lend itself well to design build. For what it is worth, most practicing in my area see far fewer disputes arising on design build projects. I believe the reason for that is that the designer and contractor are working together cooperatively. In conventional design-bid-build projects, often the consultant designer can be adverse in interest and when things go wrong, they inevitably start pointing the finger at each other. If a problem arises on a design build project, the contractor and designer are more likely to work together and solve the problem. Ego, which is a major cause of disputes, rarely gets in the way on a design build project.

One other point. Relying on and awarding to the low bidder in a traditional design-bid-build project seems to me to be a recipe for disaster. Hell, I could rent a backhoe and call myself a shaper and tell you what a wonderful job I can do shaping your bunkers for a great price but you certainly would not want me shaping your bunkers. Relying on low bid is fine where the product to be supplied is similar or generic or the specifications are clear and complete.

That's my two bits,

Bob

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2011, 04:27:51 PM »
Mike,

I'm not in the golf business but I am a cabinetmaker. As I was reading through the article I got to thinking of the analogy with the cabinetmaking business. Your post confirmed my thinking.

The design of both golf courses and cabinet projects is surely an organic process. An initial outline design is agreed upon with the client and then develops as work proceeds. The end result is hopefully an improvement on the original visuals. A good client will trust the designer/maker to come up with something that little bit special that could not have been fully envisaged at the outset.

Only by having the designer working hands-on on the build can this be achieved. If the work is sub-contracted out to a third party the ongoing design input is lost and there is the risk that a sterile recreation of the original plan will result.


www.thecabinetmakers.com
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 04:31:16 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2011, 04:31:41 PM »
I still have concerns about design-build.  In the wake of the banking meltdown, fiscal responsibility, etc. it would almost seem the trend would be going the other way - more contractor supervision.  And, all it would take to swing the pendulum back away from design-build as a cost savings method would be one high profile case of a DB project fleecing the owner.

However, it wouldn't be the architect doing more supervision, it would be an independent project manager hired by the owner.  So, in theory, the project manager could manage a gca under the contractors wings.  

The other thing that has bothered me about design build is that the contracts really don't specify the reality of the delivery method.  The architect is still responsible for drawing this that and the other thing, and meeting all codes.  But the reality is the contractor is making the decisions on things like specs and materials.  And, if you are working for the contractor, you cannot really say, "well, they are using and inferior green sand, but its $13 per ton, vs one that meets USGA specs for $40 a ton.  You can really get caught in a bind if things go bad, because contractually you as gca were supposed to specify an appropriate sand.  (Not to say I wouldn't usually spec a $13 sand anyway, if reasonable, but I am no longer in charge of making the decision, so the benefits analysis is now out of my hands)

Also, design is design, build is build, manage is manage.  In some ways, it makes no sense to hire the contractor to design, because its not his specialty.  

In Bob's example above, you can limit who bids the project to 4-6 good bidders, at least some of whom and probably all of whom have personell equal to the gca and all of whom may potentially bring a different perspective on how some of the tough site problems could be handled.

Any delivery method can be great or bad.  It still all boils down to doing business with good people on all fronts.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bob Jenkins

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2011, 04:51:28 PM »

Jeff,

Regarding your last comment, if there is one thing I have learned over the years it is that the construction industry and the design profession is all about relationships. It is dealing with people you respect and trust.

Regrding the example of the sand, typically the owner and its consultant (if they have one) will set out design criteria which can be specific regarding quality and it is a good idea to be as clear as possible in that regard. In the proposal from the design builder, it should set out with some degree of detail, the quality of such items. The same would go for the irrigation system. You can put in a cheap system with poor coverage and end up with a problem. If the designer and the contractor are working together, they are more likely to put forward a proposal on which they both agree.

Bob

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2011, 05:52:06 PM »
Bob,

The problem in any delivery system is that a budget is often established before any detail design is done, using industry norms.  But, when it is put in a construction contract, the implication is that you trade dollars to meet the contracted amount, and the emphasis on meeting budget or allowances goes up, the emphasis on exactly what type of mix or irrigation goes down.  But, it can happen in both scenarios.  It just so happens that in DB, it gets settled contractually after construction budgets are establish, not before.

In most cases, it all comes out the same anyway.  But a construction contract emphasizes construction, and a design contract emphasized design.  If you want great design, perhaps the best is to sign a deign contract with a designer who does construction, but then the give area is the budget.  If you are intersested in a world class design, you have to understand that the budget had to be flexible.

It all works out the same.  In many cases, contractors can be design oriented and factor that in more than others.  And designers are usually very practical about budgets and trade outs to get the best possible product.

In the end, I have actually only seen the contracts and specs pulled out on jobs but a few times, and almost never when the relationship is good between parties.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2011, 06:24:02 PM »
Jeff
Lohmann and Young don't use contractors - Lohmann has his own construction company.
Doak and Coore & Crenshaw don't use the term design/build - they use the term build.

"Technically" I designed Wolf Point and Don Mahaffey built it.
He helped me design it and I helped him build it.
It would have been impossible to spec and detail what we eventually did and our processes.
Which is why we did it together in the best interest of our client.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2011, 08:37:02 PM »
Mike N:

You are right that I have avoided using the term "Design/Build" -- precisely because it has a negative connotation in some circles, as Mike Y. alluded, and because many other architects trash the whole concept.

My contract is always to design the course, and we usually offer to shape the course as an add-on.  But, then, we take responsibility for building the course, too, a lot of the time.

It is hard to establish a reputation for working that way, but once you have a few good projects under your belt, my experience is that most clients are tickled to work with you on this basis.

Mike_Young

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2011, 09:38:38 PM »
OK...from now on I am just going to use the term build instead of design /build. 
As Jeff says above it all boils down to the people you deal with.   

But Jeff, when you say" I still have concerns about design-build.  In the wake of the banking meltdown, fiscal responsibility, etc. it would almost seem the trend would be going the other way - more contractor supervision.  And, all it would take to swing the pendulum back away from design-build as a cost savings method would be one high profile case of a DB project fleecing the owner.
It will take a lot of DB project fleecing to catch up with the excessive cost of the last 25 years.

I also agree with Jeff that there will always be both methods around.  That's fine.  I'm going to continue my way. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2011, 12:05:28 AM »
I’m not the best person to predict the future of golf course development, but I feel like its going to be a lot different as we move forward. I believe we’ll see a lot less big fund/lender financed developments and what does get built will be paid for with a higher percentage of “personal” investment. The days of some bank/fund hired professional dictating that only qualified architects (ASGCA members) and certified builders (GCBAA) are allowed to be involved is coming to an end. I think the claims made by these associations, and many others, lose credibility when a little research revels that these groups basically self-certify in an effort to promote themselves.

As golf development becomes more personal I think we’ll see a shift to more design/build projects. Its about the people you hire, not the company or association, and successful design/build is all about doing your homework to make sure your hiring the best people for your project. 

Chris Johnston

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2011, 12:49:50 AM »
I’m not the best person to predict the future of golf course development, but I feel like its going to be a lot different as we move forward. I believe we’ll see a lot less big fund/lender financed developments and what does get built will be paid for with a higher percentage of “personal” investment. The days of some bank/fund hired professional dictating that only qualified architects (ASGCA members) and certified builders (GCBAA) are allowed to be involved is coming to an end. I think the claims made by these associations, and many others, lose credibility when a little research revels that these groups basically self-certify in an effort to promote themselves.

As golf development becomes more personal I think we’ll see a shift to more design/build projects. Its about the people you hire, not the company or association, and successful design/build is all about doing your homework to make sure your hiring the best people for your project. 


Don - well said. You are right on.  The business has changed and we have to adapt.  In this case, it will be positive.

In the future, it will be about people, and trust.  Back to the future?

Mike_Young

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2011, 07:29:30 AM »
Don and Cris,
Uh Oh...you guys should not have said that.
Think about something.  For over 60 years there have been organizations trying to promote or create a need for the profession of GCA.  Then we have "certified builders" and then we get "certified owners" and then we have certified supts and then we get the really big one..NGF, and it just keeps going but who really benefits from all of this?...  "It's the associations stupid"....  Basically they try to create a "closed shop" for an industry that revolves around a game.  And the game of golf was overtaken by the business of golf and now we hear all the talk about golf being in trouble when really it's the business of golf that was in trouble. 
When I first started in the golf business I also felt it was critical that one become "certified" and felt a need to work towards such.  Man were my eyes opened and I was gullible enough to subject myself to it.  I mean when an entire "industry" is made up of less than 200 people why do you need an organization "judged by peers"?  THINK hard about that one?  Reality is you don't need such whether it be builders or architects.  All these golf associations do is create an expense for their industry partners who feel the need to "support" them. 
The golf business has priced the golf game almost out of existence.  Do any of you remember the beginning of the golf boom when the Signatures would not even consider a "public" or daily fee golf course?  And now the very guys that priced us to oblivion are preaching how we need to do it cheaper and trying to tell us how. 





"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCrosby

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2011, 08:23:10 AM »
Bob,

The problem in any delivery system is that a budget is often established before any detail design is done, using industry norms.  But, when it is put in a construction contract, the implication is that you trade dollars to meet the contracted amount, and the emphasis on meeting budget or allowances goes up, the emphasis on exactly what type of mix or irrigation goes down.  But, it can happen in both scenarios.  It just so happens that in DB, it gets settled contractually after construction budgets are establish, not before.

In most cases, it all comes out the same anyway.  But a construction contract emphasizes construction, and a design contract emphasized design.  If you want great design, perhaps the best is to sign a deign contract with a designer who does construction, but then the give area is the budget.  If you are intersested in a world class design, you have to understand that the budget had to be flexible.

It all works out the same.  In many cases, contractors can be design oriented and factor that in more than others.  And designers are usually very practical about budgets and trade outs to get the best possible product.

In the end, I have actually only seen the contracts and specs pulled out on jobs but a few times, and almost never when the relationship is good between parties.

Jeff -

I agree with the above. The rub is that my governing board wants to know if there is a precedure that will establish arm-length pricing for the construction. With a good relationship, I thnk pricing will take care of itself. As you note above. But my board doesn't have the same sense of the relationship that our super and I have. So it can be a tough - though not impossible - sell.

Bob

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2011, 10:08:26 AM »
Bob,

In DB or even negotiated situations with a favored contractor, I have asked them to provide the unit prices for the last similar project they won on a competitive bid.  Then, we adjust for differences, like $40 ton per sand vs $20 on the old job, add adequate for inflation (and these days, fuel surcharges) and in most cases, a client should be satisfied that the contractor has in essence, bid against himself (and others) in providing the negotiated price.

Contracts and specs are for when things go wrong.  But, money issues often make owners crazy over little things, so its understandable that they want some independent verification that the contractor doesn't have carte blanche.  If things go a bit wrong, I figure someone at a club will raise the possibility that the contractor is screwing them.  Its human nature.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2011, 12:27:20 PM »
Jeff -

There is every reason in the world to prefer DB, but for one. As you note..."it's human nature".

I like your unit cost idea as a way to approximate apples to apples comparisons.

The default situation we've got today is not a good one. The "favored" contractors often get jobs, even if they were one of the higher bidders. Usually because of the architect's expressed preferences. To which clubs will almost always defer.

So the club ends up with the worst of both worlds. Less direct archie involvement and a higher construction bill.

Bob 

Mike_Young

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2011, 01:51:59 PM »
Jeff -

There is every reason in the world to prefer DB, but for one. As you note..."it's human nature".

I like your unit cost idea as a way to approximate apples to apples comparisons.

The default situation we've got today is not a good one. The "favored" contractors often get jobs, even if they were one of the higher bidders. Usually because of the architect's expressed preferences. To which clubs will almost always defer.

So the club ends up with the worst of both worlds. Less direct archie involvement and a higher construction bill.

Bob 

Bob,
I like the deal where the signature get a 1.5 mill fee and has the club pick one of his three builders.  He calls the builder and says.."hey put the green you did on hole three at course A on hole 6 at course B.  I'll check it in a month or so.  You think that builder doesn't get what he wants when he wants?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2011, 03:10:44 PM »
Bob
If human nature requires very tight safe guards what is the point of leaving the house?
Jeff was referring to one cry baby individual and relating that to human nature - I disagree unless he meant it is natural for every once in a while to come across a human that can't relate to the others in a meaningful way.
He also used Carte Blanche - what percentage courses in the history of the world have had Carte Blanche?
I don't know what his argument style is called, strawman, red herring or throwing the baby out with the bathwater...
They sure seem like generalizations to me.
I prefer specifics.
What is wrong with the methodology that allowed Don and I to build a great golf course for a great price?
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike_Young

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Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2011, 03:18:03 PM »
Bob
If human nature requires very tight safe guards what is the point of leaving the house?
Jeff was referring to one cry baby individual and relating that to human nature - I disagree unless he meant it is natural for every once in a while to come across a human that can't relate to the others in a meaningful way.
He also used Carte Blanche - what percentage courses in the history of the world have had Carte Blanche?
I don't know what his argument style is called, strawman, red herring or throwing the baby out with the bathwater...
They sure seem like generalizations to me.
I prefer specifics.
What is wrong with the methodology that allowed Don and I to build a great golf course for a great price?
Cheers
What is wrong?  You didn't get permission.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design/Build article
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2011, 03:19:35 PM »
The Einstein guy said:  ""We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"