[Mac Plumart]

Mark,

Simply a fantastic thread with some great discovery for the members of the group to learn from.

Thanks!

[Mark Saltzman]

Mac, thanks.  Hopefully some will take the trip to enjoy the course as I did.

Adam, the black tee at 14 + the shape of the green is one of the few things I did not like on the golf course.  The first day I played the blacks and the pin was left.  From what I could see it looked like the green was left of the massive bunkering, and the bunkering was just there to intimidate and penalize a shot missed short and right.  Next day I move up a set and the pin is now back right, on the narrow portion of the green.  From the whites it makes for a very interesting shot to that pin since the closer to pin high you want to get yardage-wise, the more accurate you have to be.  Ok, cool, I like that too.  BUT, look at that shot from the blacks.  That pin is floating over that bunker.  Into the wind (and its gonna be a strong wind) you have a 180 yard shot + uphill + wind = what 220.  No way anyone is taking on that shot.  Downwind it plays short but you have even less chance of keeping it on the green.  If you carry the bunker downwind, you are bouncing all the down to the collection area.  To me, it's not really a hero shot to that pin, it's an impossible shot and as a result, a boring shot (because nobody will ever try it).  Perhaps they should have reversed the green shape so that it is widest over the bunker, thus encouraging a player to take on the risk.

Perhaps I'm wrong, since the green is still 20 yards deep over the bunker (though it gets much shallower than that the further right you go).

Thoughts?

[Will Smith]

Mark,

I agree with you that the 14th from the back of the lower teeing area is very tough when played dead into or even tougher straight down wind. With a cornering wind it is pretty interesting and fun, but I definitely see what you are saying and it is why I lobbied for the upper teeing area. It was not in the original routing and I thought it gave the hole a lot of flexibility if the wind was blowing hard from the west. I also thought it was a different look in that it is not full of dramatics and would provide the opportunity to play a true links shot where one could land it short and run it back to the hole.

Thanks for posting the photos. It is great to see how the course is evolving.

- Will

[Mark Saltzman]

Will,

after I finished my post I started wondering how the hole would play in a cross-wind (the days I played it was either straight into or against).  I suppose a left-to-right wind would give a chance of getting close-ish to that hole, but I'm still not sure I see it.

That being said, great idea with the upper tee box.  Though less dramatic, I think it is a better hole from up there.

[Adam Clayman]

The other aspect of the 14th is the confusion the golfer has when trying to figure out where to go to tee off, walking off the 13th. Since I've played so little golf in my life, the confusion is not unusual, but, even for some of the well travelled, it was confusing.

Mark, 220 uphill into the wind shots should be mere fodder for the expert player. 

[Mark Saltzman]

From 214 Yard Black Tee




From 201 Yard Black Tee





From 199 Yard White Tee - this is by far a more difficult tee shot than the slightly longer black tees






Red Tee



Even the though the green is as big you will ever see (some 20,000 square feet), with a strong wind (in any direction) hitting the green is no bargain.  As a result, a massive bailout area to the left awaits the cautious player, afraid of finding the long grass right.


Hitting the green, however, is only the beginning of the fun here.  There is a large false front and in the middle of the green there is as severe an undulation as one will ever see.  This makes putts from one portion of the green to another very difficult.

Large false front




From left of green






From behind green

[Mark Saltzman]

Double Black Tee (489 yard box - only steps from 16 green)




Black Tee




White Tee




Another tee shot with a lot of options.  Of course, wind dictates which set of options are in play for the day.  Into the wind the goal was simply getting past the hump 230 yards from the tee to give a view of the green.

Generally, the best views are from the left but the shortest approaches from the right.

View from a tee shot played too aggressively (meaning missed to the right):




From right of the centerline bunker




From over centerline (online possible downwind)




From left side of fairway




Short of green




Behind green




Shots missed short/left kick down some 40 yards from the green into this massive collection area







Similarly, shots long will kick 40 yards away into this collection area

[Mark Saltzman]

Black Tee




White Tee




Red Tee



Approach from right




Approach from centre




Approach from left




From short right of green




From short left




From Behind

[Jeff Doerr]

Thanks Mark! Tremendous tour for us. I'll be heading to YUCCA 2012, and hope to see some of the other great courses in the region.

[Mark Saltzman]

Thanks Mark! Tremendous tour for us. I'll be heading to YUCCA 2012, and hope to see some of the other great courses in the region.

Jeff,

Not a problem, I've enjoyed doing these tours. 

The region has such an unbelievable menu of courses to choose from, no doubt you will have a phenomenal time.  Really hard to say that you could go wrong with any of them.



As an aside, how do I add this thread to http://www.delicious.com/golfclubatlas ?

[George Freeman]

Bump - another great photo tour by Mark S.  This course is REALLY intriguing...

[Tim Pitner]

I recently booked a trip to The Prairie Club for this fall.  I asked about walkability and was told the Dunes course is 9 miles long.  It really looks like a massive course (for better or worse).  

[Mark Saltzman]

I recently booked a trip to The Prairie Club for this fall.  I asked about walkability and was told the Dunes course is 9 miles long.  It really looks like a massive course (for better or worse).  

Tim, here is what I said about the walk:

Are the green to tee walks as long as they look on the course map? 

David,

The short answer is no, not even close.  The paths on the course map are the cart paths.  On several holes the next tee is basically a part of the collection area from the previous green.  For example, the fourth tee is probably only 5 yards from the back left portion of the third green (I think I have a picture, which I will post).  Still, the course is not the easiest walk because of all the undulations and changes in elevation.

The only caveat is that the shortest paths from tee to fairway and from green to next tee are not cleared through the longer grass.  There is usually a rugged path that has been flattened down (a bit) by previous golfers walking through the fescue.  I might be laughed at now, but... there is a big warning re Rattlesnakes in the long grass on the property and the whole procedure about what you do if you encounter one and if you get bit... I didn't want to have to deal with that... so, unless the path was really clear I avoided walking in the tall grass whenever possible.  As a result on holes like 5 (the tee is again maybe 15-20 yards from the previous green), I would take the cart path to the fairway.  If you look at the routing, the cart path is very roundabout and results in a disjointed feeling where you lose sight of the hole and come out somewhere in the middle of the fairway.  If the paths through the fescue were cleared better (or if I had bigger you know whats), the walk would be much more enjoyable.

I wonder how they came up with that 9 mile number.  I suspect it includes the walk to the 1st tee and the walk back from the 18th green to the clubhouse.  If you take a cart up to the first tee and tell them to leave one at the 18th green it is a big help.

[Mark Saltzman]

Patrick wrote this a few years back regarding Seminole:

The genius I discovered today is the incremental and decremental alteration of the values of each hole created by shifts in the direction of the wind and the ability of the course to remain essentially intact or equivalent in the totality of those values, irrespective of the direction of the wind.

A golf course that can retain its inherent values and its cumulative value, in the context of wind direction from any one of 360 degrees, has to be viewed as the product of genius.

What's also apparent is the vast size of the greens, and how wind direction and velocity can alter the preceived or practical size of those greens.

The variety of hole locations and its effect on play is marvelous.

What other routings have this quality ?

Patrick, though I have not played Seminole and cannot relate directly, this is exactly what I would say about the routing at TPC(Dunes).

[Jim Colton]

Mark,

Is it the extreme fairway width that keeps the shot values in check in any wind direction? Isn't the routing largely just out and back?

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

Is it the extreme fairway width that keeps the shot values in check in any wind direction? Isn't the routing largely just out and back?

Jim,

Good point.

What I got out of Patrick's post was that the course, as a whole, maintains its interest with any wind direction.  This is what I think TPC does so well (though with the caveat that the wind really blows in only two directions).

I guess it is not the routing of the holes that maintain this interest because (as you say) they are routed largely out-and-back.  It is the placement of features that will only be in play on certain days, depending on the wind.  

The main point, which I am struggling to articulate, is that the golf course plays equally well/fun/interesting, though completely different, with different winds.

Could the same be said (not a criticism, just a question) of some of the great modern courses on windy sites like Pac Dunes, Ballyneal, Sand Hills or Friar's Head?

Edit: Jim, is it too late to retract my earlier statement?  If Seminole plays in varied wind directions as well as TPC, then given that the routing at Seminole is on about 130 acres vs. the 300(?) that TPC is on, it must be a much better routing.  I probably shouldn't have compared the two in the first place.  I think the design at TPC is fantastic, but the routing at Seminole is likely considerably better.

[Pete Balzer]

Tim,
My wife and I walked the Dunes course about 20 times this summer(I carry, she uses pull cart). Many times we walk 36, but admittedly, we mix in the Pines course, which is easier to walk. We have hoofed 36 on the Dunes, but don't have the energy to even play the Horse afterwards. They have cut walking shortcuts that help drastically, but they aren't obvious for first time visitors.

Maybe we'll run into you this Fall.
Pete

[RJ_Daley]

Tim,
My wife and I walked the Dunes course about 20 times this summer(I carry, she uses pull cart). Many times we walk 36, but admittedly, we mix in the Pines course, which is easier to walk. We have hoofed 36 on the Dunes, but don't have the energy to even play the Horse afterwards. They have cut walking shortcuts that help drastically, but they aren't obvious for first time visitors.

Maybe we'll run into you this Fall.
Pete

Wow Pete, that is impressive.  You and your wife should be doing some sort of health commercials.  Congrats on such a healthy lifestyle!!!

[Brian Cenci]

I played the course in September of 2010....I really enjoyed the whole place and both courses.  I know some of the initial rankings don't have the Prairie Club up in any top 100 but the Dunes belongs there.

I played PC - Dunes, PC - Pines.  That same extended weekend played 36 at Sand Hills and 36 at Ballyneal.  The Dunes course at PC isn't as good as Ballyneal, but fairly close.

[Pete Balzer]

I thought this was a much better hole from the blacks than form the whites.  From the whites, especially into a headwind, there is very little strategy off the tee - you are basically forced into playing right of the centerline bunker and, if the pin is on the right, having a blind approach.  From the black tees, one has the option of playing either right or left of the centerline bunker. 


Black Tee




White Tee



My biggest issue with the hole is that I couldn't see any benefit to playing to the right side of the centerline bunker.  The view of the green from the right is always more difficult than from the left.

View from the right side of the fairway:






View from the Left:






The green has a very severe false-front.  Again, notice how the green opens op from the left:




Just right of the green, and blind from the fairway, is a massive, deep collection area.  Notice the contouring just over the bunker.  A shot at the right edge of the green will kick towards the green, rewarding a brave approach.  However, a shot just right of the right edge of the green will kick towards the collection area and end up a very long way from the pin - penalizing the brave player who does not quite pull-off his shot.




View from the back of the green:

Mark-
Looks like they are trying to address the issues with the 5th hole. Here's an email update I recieved from TPC-" First on the list will be adding fairway to hole #5 on the Dunes Course. Architect Tom Lehman intends to make the hole more drivable by adding fairway to the right of the green"

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