[Tom_Doak]

Tom - can I ask you to expand upon your comment, what are the complexities that you see?

 

Mike:

All I'm saying is that we are only four holes into this tour, and already I feel like I am getting lost in too much information.  That hollow on the third hole that you can pull your second shot into unless you drive it to the left ... nobody is going to pick up on something like that the first or second time through the course, plus it involves blindness as a hazard, which few people appreciate.  [Heck, the main criticism of St. Andrews Beach is that you can't see the bottom of the flag often enough ... at least you can usually see the flag!]

Or those pictures from behind the fourth green ... big green or not, if you miss it in the wrong place you are sometimes going to be completely stymied for your next shot.  Raters are very quick to pounce on something like that as "unfair".  I wouldn't agree with them; they probably had an ocean of room to miss on the other side of the hole, and screwed up big-time.  And yet, when you pride yourself on making a course with a lot of options, then it's hard to backtrack on that speech when a player gets out of position and is really screwed.

I am guessing from what I've seen so far that this will be a VERY polarizing course, and much more popular on GCA than in the world at large.  That may be exactly what its designers and builders intended it to be -- consciously or not.  But, as someone who has dealt with his share of controversy over the years, I hope they are prepared to take the bruises that come with the territory.

[George Pazin]

... And yet, when you pride yourself on making a course with a lot of options, then it's hard to backtrack on that speech when a player gets out of position and is really screwed.

This is a really interesting comment, probably worthy of its own thread. On the face of it, I feel like if you don't have an occasional screwing of the bad miss - even if it's not obvious - then you perhaps didn't make the options challenging enough (using "you" generally, not specifically), or maybe not diverse enough (hate that word) in their penalties.

[Tom_Doak]

... And yet, when you pride yourself on making a course with a lot of options, then it's hard to backtrack on that speech when a player gets out of position and is really screwed.

This is a really interesting comment, probably worthy of its own thread. On the face of it, I feel like if you don't have an occasional screwing of the bad miss - even if it's not obvious - then you perhaps didn't make the options challenging enough (using "you" generally, not specifically), or maybe not diverse enough (hate that word) in their penalties.

George:

I guess I should qualify that comment.

If you are staring at a nasty pot bunker guarding the green, you hit into the bunker anyway, and have to hit the next shot backwards, maybe you were screwed, but it's not much of a surprise and you should not be too offended.  [Even so, Mike Keiser did not like the idea of pot bunkers in Bandon precisely because he was afraid that's how his customers would react.]

However, if you hit an approach shot to the wrong part of the green, get there and find out you can't hit your next shot within 40 feet -- because of slopes and a pinched section of the green and the intervention of rough -- then you are more likely to be upset, even though you might have figured it out if you'd looked really closely from the tee, and thought about the consequences.  As a designer, I'm wary of building things like that into a course.  I would never say never -- but I wouldn't do it very many times on any one course.

Some people think my greens provide plenty of similar examples, but usually it's because they don't have enough imagination on the line of their first putt, or enough touch to execute it properly.  Plus, there's a difference in people's threshold or tolerance level for such stuff -- there's a real difference between not being able to get it within 30 feet of the hole, or 6-8 feet, or tap-in range which is what some players insist should always be possible.  I fall in the middle of that range I provided, but there are very few people to the left of me and a whole bunch way on the right.

[Will Smith]

Wade,

When the course was first laid out the second hole did abut the property. After construction started, the owners were able to procure that land. Rather than change the hole, Chris and Tom decided to leave the fence in and created a great hole by doing so. The hole can not be compared with anything else in the Sand Hills or Chop Hills. The lower tee shot mimics the tee shot at the Road Hole better than any MacDonald/Raynor replica hole that I have seen and the hole itself reminds me of the second at Talking Stick North, one of my favorite holes in the world.

Tom,

Interesting comments on the need to play the course multiple times to get a true sense of it. When the Golfweek bus showed up last summer I happened to be there. They played on one of the stiller days I have ever seen in that part of the country or anywhere. One quick round that did not highlight the need for width for playability purposes and then back on the bus. Ironically, I think the course has been better received by the paying public than the raters (which tend to have similar sensibilities to the GCA crowd) because they have had the opportunity to play it in a variety of conditions and realize what a blast it is to play. (Of course, I am a little biased but like Kyle, I am very proud of what the team accomplished and think it does stand up with other courses that we have been privileged to work on.)

We put a lot of thought into creating interest in strategy on a course that maybe the widest ever created. The wind can really blow and we wanted to make sure that people who had come all that way could actually play even if it was blowing like crazy.

The fourth green is less pinched than it looks and we spent a considerable mount of time making sure that one could putt through the neck and at least get to that 6-8 foot range that you mention. But as you say, it takes imagination and skill.

Adam,

You are correct that the last holes do pretty much play the same direction kind of like National Golf Links of America and the Old Course.

[George Pazin]

Thanks for that post, Will, I hope you will continue to offer insights throughout the tour.

[Adam Clayman]

Will, I hope you didn't read my comment about the route as a flaw. Just an observation.  I was unaware about NGLA, but of course, I knew the Old course is basically out and in. As I initially said, there's little to criticize. But I wish you would have tackled the one nit I did pick. Btw, It was not my nit. It was someone else's observation and I was just trying to add to the discussion by mentioning it.

[Don_Mahaffey]

We put a lot of thought into creating interest in strategy on a course that maybe the widest ever created.

What thought was put into the mowers used? I'm looking at these huge expanses of grass and these little lightweight 5 gang mowing strips....those are some huge greens to be walk mowing.
Any thought given to using something that could mow a little more economically?  

[Peter Pallotta]

George P, Tom D - your questions and answers brought to mind the old question as to whether golfers who mess up and can't recover take it less badly if the problem is caused by 'nature' instead of 'the hand of man'.  It also reminded me that, while I have met many rabbits who want to sometimes feel like tigers, I've yet to meet a tiger who accepted/was willing to accept his rabbit status with anything resembling good grace.

Peter  

[Mark Saltzman]

I thought this was a much better hole from the blacks than form the whites.  From the whites, especially into a headwind, there is very little strategy off the tee - you are basically forced into playing right of the centerline bunker and, if the pin is on the right, having a blind approach.  From the black tees, one has the option of playing either right or left of the centerline bunker. 


Black Tee




White Tee



My biggest issue with the hole is that I couldn't see any benefit to playing to the right side of the centerline bunker.  The view of the green from the right is always more difficult than from the left.

View from the right side of the fairway:






View from the Left:






The green has a very severe false-front.  Again, notice how the green opens op from the left:




Just right of the green, and blind from the fairway, is a massive, deep collection area.  Notice the contouring just over the bunker.  A shot at the right edge of the green will kick towards the green, rewarding a brave approach.  However, a shot just right of the right edge of the green will kick towards the collection area and end up a very long way from the pin - penalizing the brave player who does not quite pull-off his shot.




View from the back of the green:

[Mark Saltzman]

This hole plays very different depending on the wind.  Into the wind, one really wants to take as short a line to the hole (over the bunker) as possible as a tee shot to the right will leave a very long second.  Downwind, the hole is very reachable and the primary concern is avoiding the centerline bunker some 280 yards from the tee.   

Black Tee (On 525 Yard Blue Tee)






White Tee (On 433 Yard Green Tee)





Playing short and left of the centerline bunker leaves this view.  From the left, there is a forced carry over the bunker 100 yards short of the green if one wants to have a short third.  A second shot from the left, unlike from the right, gives the player a glimpse of the flag.




From just left of the centerline bunker; about 230 yards out:




If you are lucky enough to catch this hole playing hard downwind (as I did on one of my plays), the hole plays nothing more than a short par 4.  If you manage to avoid the centerline bunker, the tee shot will take the slope of the fairway to the left and will settle in to a low spot leaving a blind, 140 yard shot into the par 5!  Here's what the approach will look like from there:




Approach from about 75 Yards from the left:




Approach from about 100 yards from the right:



Once again, there is a very clever use of the collection area.  Left of the green there is a massive, pretty severely sloped and deep collection area.  Shots that trickle off the left edge will not collect down, but anything with some speed will.  Shots hit from the left side of the fairway will only find the collection area with a very poor shot, hence rewarding the brave play to carry the bunker 100 yards short of the green.

From the right, however, the collection area is very much in play.  With the green playing diagonal to the line of play from the right, one must get both the line and the yardage spot-on or they will have to deal with the deep bunkers short/right or the collection area long/left.  This golf course rewards aggressive play.

View from long-left.  Notice the massive collection area:







A look back at number 6:

[Mark Saltzman]

View from the Black Tee:







View from White Tee:




From just short right of green:





From back of green:

[Jim Tang]

Thanks Mark for sharing.  The pictures look fantastic and I would like to get out there some day.

What are the green to tee distances like?  It looks like you would probably need to take a cart rather than walk.  True?

Also, it looks like many of the greens are mostly open in front and the turf looks rather firm.  Did you find bouncing the ball in low was a viable option?  I would hope so.

[Mark Saltzman]

What are the green to tee distances like?  It looks like you would probably need to take a cart rather than walk.  True?

Jim, I answered this question earlier in the thread:

Are the green to tee walks as long as they look on the course map? 

David,

The short answer is no, not even close.  The paths on the course map are the cart paths.  On several holes the next tee is basically a part of the collection area from the previous green.  For example, the fourth tee is probably only 5 yards from the back left portion of the third green (I think I have a picture, which I will post).  Still, the course is not the easiest walk because of all the undulations and changes in elevation.

The only caveat is that the shortest paths from tee to fairway and from green to next tee are not cleared through the longer grass.  There is usually a rugged path that has been flattened down (a bit) by previous golfers walking through the fescue.  I might be laughed at now, but... there is a big warning re Rattlesnakes in the long grass on the property and the whole procedure about what you do if you encounter one and if you get bit... I didn't want to have to deal with that... so, unless the path was really clear I avoided walking in the tall grass whenever possible.  As a result on holes like 5 (the tee is again maybe 15-20 yards from the previous green), I would take the cart path to the fairway.  If you look at the routing, the cart path is very roundabout and results in a disjointed feeling where you lose sight of the hole and come out somewhere in the middle of the fairway.  If the paths through the fescue were cleared better (or if I had bigger you know whats), the walk would be much more enjoyable.

To answer you second question:

Many greens but not all accept running shots into the green.  A big part of what makes the course really interesting is the variety of options in approach shots.  Often you can run the shot into the green, but equally often you should be looking long, left or right of the pin to use backboards or sideboards to get the ball next to the hole.  This is not a course where you simply get the yardage and aim at the pin.

[RJ_Daley]

I wish every golf fanatic who enjoys golf adventures could have a go at Prairie Club.  It is a certain mind set that one must adopt, however.  I don't think it is like going to any golf club within the scope of the usual resort sort of experience to the extent it almost feels like a different game.  It is even different than Sand Hills GC because it is from my perspective an even bigger, more massive complex, including the double courses of differing styles (Pines and Dunes).  While it hardly seems possible due to the legendary Sand Hills GC experience we came to know as a trip to the middle of nowhere to a course that felt vast and isolated, I can personally look back and say for the occasional or once in a lifetime experience, Sand Hills actually feels more intimate and fathomable in the uptake of the golf course design than Prairie Club, particularly the Dunes course.  Maybe part of that different feeling is that at Sand Hills, you are walking or with a caddie walking most of the time (of course carts are optional).  But at the Dunes course, you are riding unless you are that one in a hundred+ that might give it a go attempting to walk.  You might get out of your cart with the couple clubs you think you may need for the approach shots and tell your cart partner you'll meet him at the green, but that is about the extent most people will get to walk that amazing land.  Yet, if you do that, and you play a couple times a day, you'll still get your fair share of walking.

But, without a doubt, the FW hole corridors of Dunes, and the green complexes in general are massive even next to Sand Hills, where some of the greens are actually not all that large.   Each hole at PC-D is a big, complex and widely variable set of questions.  I might be the guy Adam is referring to when I'd see the size of some of the PC-Ds greens and question the actual need for greens 'that' large, literally 2-3X larger than perhaps needed to be functional and still good for that style of play.  I'm of two minds on that issue of grandiosity.  I wonder if that much turf might be a fatal flaw in maintaining the course economically to the extent it becomes just too much, and on the other hand, one gets a bit golf giddy and it boggles the mind to just embrace it as a feature of endless fun and incredible green set up choices for pins and angle to play at various areas of the greens.  

I asked the question last year, but don't know if I really got an answer or opinion of whether Tom Lehman's extensive work to be on scene for construction and obviously playing and testing the shots at PC-D was a big advantage for him to go to C&Cs prairie style Colorado Club to win that Senior Open.  I would really love to spend time out there just watching the big boys play that course in a competition.  I think I"d make the special trip just to get to be a spectator for something out there like a Shells Wonderful World of Golf (so long as spectators didn't have to venture into the native areas and risk encounter with the prairie rattlers!!!   ).



http://www.sdsnake.com/Rat.htm#Rattling
 

I'm looking forward to the discussion from those returning from the 'fifth major' at DR, who also may have made the trip to PC. I'd like to hear the observations, not as a matter of which is best so much as what the differences and varied experiences were like.  

Mark, you photos are very good.

[Mark Saltzman]

The decision off the tee is largely dictated by wind.  The tee shot has a centerline bunker that is some 240 yards to carry from the tee.  The approach is less intimidating from the right, but much, much longer.  If into the wind, and given the length of the hole, I think one has no choice but to bite the bullet, play left of the bunker and leave a VERY intimidating approach into the green.  Downwind, there are many more choices.  Driver is probably not the play as it brings the right bunker into play.  However, a really aggressive tee shot directly over the centerline bunker can leave a very short approach.

Black Tee







Approach from left of centerline bunker:




Approach from right of centerline bunker:




Approach from downwind drive short of dunes:




A closer look at the dunes protecting the green:






It wasn't until I walked over all of the trouble and the view of the whole green opened up did it even occur to me that this is an Alps.  It really reminded me of the Alps at RSG.

The area just over the dunes:




View of green from just over dunes.  A shot can land well short of the green and still be safe.




Green from behind:




A look back at 8 green from 9 tee.  Also notice the massive collection area long of the green. 

[Mark Saltzman]

Black Tee:




Approach from 175:




Approach from 100:




These three humps short of the green turn this from a  ho-hum approach to a very difficult one.  The player must be very precise with his approach in judging these humps to get the ball anywhere near the hole.




From behind:

[RJ_Daley]

I loved 8 ---after I played it.   The graphic picto-gram on the yardage book looked intimidating for one that hadn't seen it yet.  But, it is prevailing down wind and we had enough wind to scream a drive over the center bunker and down the slope leaving about ~225 from slightly right side in my case.  Unfortunately, I topped a 3wood and so was in the point apex of the narrow draw of bunkers up to the green.  Not really understanding just how enormous the green surrounds are up there on a first play, it looked almost unfair for the long second shot or even my forced short shot from the miss-hit .  It is quite a revelation to finally get up there and see just how much room there is.  It is one of those fun aspects of discovery on first play of such a massive course design.  I loved it!   

[Carl Rogers]

Part of what I think that this course and other well known highly regarded courses bring into to play is the notion of a "partial recovery shot" .... you have hit not a real bad shot, but you are out of position, to advance toward the optimal next shot, it takes a remarkable somewhat high risk shot .... or you hit a safer shot, leaving the player a different but still challenging "partial recovery" shot.

[Mark Saltzman]

Part of what I think that this course and other well known highly regarded courses bring into to play is the notion of a "partial recovery shot" .... you have hit not a real bad shot, but you are out of position, to advance toward the optimal next shot, it takes a remarkable somewhat high risk shot .... or you hit a safer shot, leaving the player a different but still challenging "partial recovery" shot.

Carl,

well put. I think the course does a very good job of rewarding a player who puts his bull in A position, especially where that requires a fair bit of extra risk.  However, largely because of the scale of the course, a player can miss the A position and have an opportunity to recover.  It kind of takes the old "hard par, easy bogey" and changes it to (when out of position), 'really hard birdie, possible par, easy bogey.'  Doubles are no fun anyways.

[Mark Saltzman]

Black Tee




Approaching Fairway - Notice significant width to right of centerline bunkers, BUT there is plenty of width between bunkers on left and centerline.  Only a very cautious player would every play to the right.





View from right side of fairway:





View from left side of fairway:



Approach from 150:



Approach from 100:




From right of green:






From left of green:






From next tee:

[Will MacEwen]

Mark,

Thanks for doing this.  Really enjoying the thread.

[Frank M]

Mark, all your pictures are great. I can tell it's a great time. You have quite the lineup going. Hope to do it myself some day.

[Mark Saltzman]

This is a really good hole either downwind or into the wind.

Into the wind, the real focus is placing one's tee shot in the fairway, avoiding the centerline bunker. 

Downwind, it is possible to carry the blowout on the left.  If successful, there is lots of room left and even a speed-slot down to the green.


Black Tee




Blue Tee






From the back tee reaching the centerline bunker into the wind is a very long way.  One will likely be left with the following approach:




From right of centerline:




The speed-slot over the blowout:






The only think I didn't like was the lack of collection area over the green.  Playing downwind, it seemed that shots that carried the blowout ran a lot, right through the green and into the tall grass.  A little bit of extra room behind the green would further encourage a player to attempt to drive the green.  The following picture is taken from the edge of the long grass:

[Mark Saltzman]

The hole with the biggest little bunker in the world.  It's amazing what goes through your head when you have 100 yards of fairway to hit at and exactly 2 yards dead in the middle of it that you can't.  I think the tiny centerline bunker will cause many more awful tee shots than would a series of bunkers pinching the fairway from each side.

Black Tee




The Centerline Bunker








Approach from Top of Hill (about 250 out)




Approach from 150




Approach from 100




Short of Green




Back of Green




From Behind

[Tom_Doak]

Okay, as Pete Dye used to say, hold the phone.  There has GOT to be some discussion about this last hole, a reachable par-5 with a 100-yard wide fairway and a two-yard wide pot bunker right in the L.A.  To me, that sounds pretty silly, though I would have to reserve opinion until I saw the topography in the landing area and whether the little bunker commands a wider space.  What say you all?

I would also love to know, if it's fair to ask this question, how many of the bunkers on this course were flagged out by Messrs. Lehman and Brand, and how many were suggested / added by the shapers, Messrs. Franz and Smith.  My answer may have to come offline, I don't know, but I am interested to know if I am guessing correctly.

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