The Prairie Club (Dunes) Photo Tour - Lehman/Brands - All 18 Posted

[Mark Saltzman]

I am going to do my best to do a photo tour of the Dunes Course at The Prairie Club (designed by Tom Lehman and Chris Brands), but given the expansive nature of the golf course, there is no way the photos will do the course justice.  Greg Ohlendorf gave a brief tour, but I will try to expand upon it (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44654.0.html).

I have not played Ballyneal, Dismal River or Sand Hills so I cannot possibly compare it to them, but I will say that the course is exceptional.  There are so many sets of tees, possible pin positions and cleverly placed fairway bunkers (and an ever-present, constantly switching wind) that give the course a very different feel every time you play it. I played 72 holes over 2 days, from three sets of tees with two different winds and honestly the course was equally fun with every combination.  

I was really impressed that even though the wind switched 180 degrees from one day to the next, the course remained fair and interesting both days.  I was convinced I knew the direction of the predominant wind after my first day of play because the course 'fit' that day's wind so well.  After the second day and an opposite wind, however, I really wasn't sure.  The course played that good with both wind directions.  

Another thing I found really interesting about the course was that even though the greens are very, very large, often the internal contouring was quite subtle.  As a result, long two-putts were possible.  That being said, there was substantial contouring around the perimeter of the greens.  It seemed as though the archies had a couple of pin positions in mind that would be seriously impacted by these difficult contours, but on days where the supers wanted the course to play a bit easier, middle of the green pin positions could be used that would not bring the large contours into play.

I played the course from three different tees (all par 73) (Black - 7583 Yards, 75/135; White 7355 Yards, 74.2/133; Blue 6838 Yards,  71.7/128).  None of the tees I played actually played close to their stated yardages as tees were moved up on many holes.  Photos will be from a few sets of tees as will be noted.

Anyway, here goes...


The course is largely an out and back layout, though not in the purest sense as the routing makes a few jaunts that are largely perpendicular to the general direction of the routing. I was told that the predominant wind for the course is a south wind, making most of the front nine into the wind (exceptions being 4, 8 and 9) and most of the back nine downwind (except 14 and 15).









Tee from the blacks (which were on the 426 yard tee)




Tee from the whites (which were at the 359 yard green tee box)




From 175 yards out on the right side of the fairway - from here the green is entirely blind




From 160 yards out from the center/left side of the fairway - the top of the pin can be seen from here




From just on top of the hill - the first time the green comes into view




Green from right (with holes 2 and 3 in the background)

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 2 requires a lot of thought.  As the yardage guide indicates, pin position dictates the line on the tee shot to the fairway that is some 70 yards wide.  With left side of the fairway sloping substantially towards the center and the OB lurking all the way down the right side, it is very difficult to get the ball anywhere but the center of the fairway.  However, the green is narrow in the front and opens up in the centre and back meaning pins that are tucked either right or left must be approached from the correct side of the fairway and the player must be bold in his decision from the tee.



Black Tee (478 Yards)



White Tee (444 Yards) - Notice the whites play shorter than the blue tees, but are arguably more difficult than even the black tees as one is forced to drive over the OB.  Given the substantial wind at TPC, one must be very familiar with course to properly choose a line on this semi-blind tee shot.




Approach from center of fairway






From 25 Yards Short of Green




Green from Right




Green from Behind




From Back Right




From Back Left

[Mac Plumart]

Looks good...keep it coming Mark...I am anxious to get out there some day.

[Eric Smith]

Been waiting to see this one, Mark. Looks like you caught some gorgeous weather to play golf (again!). Was this the next course for you after Sanctuary? Judging from the pics I'm seeing from both places, the course looks a heckuva lot more open - those fairways look huge! Looking forward to the continuation of the thread. Thanks for posting.

[Mark Saltzman]

Been waiting to see this one, Mark. Looks like you caught some gorgeous weather to play golf (again!). Was this the next course for you after Sanctuary? Judging from the pics I'm seeing from both places, the course looks a heckuva lot more open - those fairways look huge! Looking forward to the continuation of the thread. Thanks for posting.

Eric, I did indeed get some perfect weather (though it was a wee bit windy in the afternoons).  After Sanctuary I made my way to Bayside in Ogallala, NE before heading up to The Prairie Club.

It is way more open than Sanctuary and is without a doubt the most expansive golf course I have ever seen.  Many fairways are in the 100 yard wide range (I'm guessing) and with many options off each tee.  It's not about hitting the fairway here, it's more about hitting the fairway in the right place.  Put it this way, 5 rounds at TPC and I'm only on my second ball (and you'll see, I'm not that straight a driver).

I'll probably get a few more holes posted tonight, though playing an evening 18 is tempting.  After 72 holes yesterday I was pretty darn tired - played 18 today and figured I should give it a rest (and no, I didn't walk 'em all).

[David Kelly]

Are the green to tee walks as long as they look on the course map? 

[Mark Saltzman]

Are the green to tee walks as long as they look on the course map? 

David,

The short answer is no, not even close.  The paths on the course map are the cart paths.  On several holes the next tee is basically a part of the collection area from the previous green.  For example, the fourth tee is probably only 5 yards from the back left portion of the third green (I think I have a picture, which I will post).  Still, the course is not the easiest walk because of all the undulations and changes in elevation.

The only caveat is that the shortest paths from tee to fairway and from green to next tee are not cleared through the longer grass.  There is usually a rugged path that has been flattened down (a bit) by previous golfers walking through the fescue.  I might be laughed at now, but... there is a big warning re Rattlesnakes in the long grass on the property and the whole procedure about what you do if you encounter one and if you get bit... I didn't want to have to deal with that... so, unless the path was really clear I avoided walking in the tall grass whenever possible.  As a result on holes like 5 (the tee is again maybe 15-20 yards from the previous green), I would take the cart path to the fairway.  If you look at the routing, the cart path is very roundabout and results in a disjointed feeling where you lose sight of the hole and come out somewhere in the middle of the fairway.  If the paths through the fescue were cleared better (or if I had bigger you know whats), the walk would be much more enjoyable.

[Ronald Montesano]

Champing at the bit, I am...how long will it take me and my mule to go from Ballyneal to Sand Hills to Dismal River to Prairie Club to Prairie Dunes, in any order?

[Mark Saltzman]

Off the tee, one must choose his line wisely.  First priority is to get the ball to the left of the centerline bunker to leave a much easier second shot.  Shots hit short/right will funnel down to the bottom of the hill short of the massive bunker on the right.

This hole played really different with different winds.  The first day, into the wind, the focus was avoiding the centerline bunker.  Downwind, the centerline bunker was easily carryable and I was forced to decide whether or not to challenge the massive bunker on the right as it was now reachable.  




View from the Double Blacks (659 Yard Tee):




View from Black Tee (on 559 yard box):






View from White Tee (on the 498 yard box):




Downwind and after successfully finding the upper portion of the fairway, this hole is easily reached in two.  This is the view from the upper portion of the fairway:




A drive in the right portion of the fairway leave this view:




Closer look at the bunker




Drives down the right also bring into play a large runoff that is some 50-150 yards short of the green and on the left side of the fairway.  From the right side only a shot that challenges the second set of rightside fairway bunkers will avoid the run-off.  The view from down in the valley:




Approach from the right side of the fairway:




There is a generous area on which a player can run the ball onto the green (also the area short-right of the green slopes toward the green)...




BUT, shots that are long are not tolerated.  View just over the green:



View from back left (notice how close 4th tee is to 3rd green!)

[Mark Saltzman]

Champing at the bit, I am...how long will it take me and my mule to go from Ballyneal to Sand Hills to Dismal River to Prairie Club to Prairie Dunes, in any order?

Ron,

Prairie Dunes is a long way out of the way, I believe it would add some 8 hours to the drive (unless you flew into Kansas and out of Denver, in which case it would probably only be 5 hours extra).

Here's what I know:  It's about 3 hours from Denver to Ballyneal.  3ish more to get up to Prairie Club.  About an hour to Sand Hills and then I think Sand Hills and Dismal are about 45 minutes apart.  Then the drive from Dismal to Prairie Dunes is about 8 hours (though you would go right by Wild Horse and Awarii Dunes, so those are probable stops).  And then I think it's about an hour from Prairie Dunes to Wichita to fly home.

Hope that helps.

[Frank M]

Mark,

Great stuff.

Looking forward to the rest of the pictures.

A trip to the Sand Hills is highest on my list of places to go...I hope to make it out there eventually.

[Tony_Chapman]

If a guy really wanted to do this trip and money was no option, nor was the amount of time spent in a car this is how I'd recommend to do it.

Day One: Fly into Kansas City, early and play Swope Memorial (Tillinghast), then head down I-70 and play Ron Whitten's Chisholm Trail outside of Abilene. Sleep in Salina.

Day Two: Salina to Newton drive is about an hour or a bit more to play Jeff Brauer's Sand Creek Station. An afternoon round in Hutchinson at PD and stay the night their and play again in before noon. After that, drive to Kearney, NE (about a five hour drive).

Day Three: Awarii Dunes in the morning and Wild Horse in the afternoon, drive to North Platte.

Day Four: North Platte to Prairie Club, then back to Dismal and Sand Hills (take however many days you wish).

Later: Leave Sand Hills/Dismal for Ballyneal and with option of a stop at Bayside.

Final stop: Ballyneal to Denver for flight home (many good golf options in Denver if you wanted to).

[Mark Saltzman]

A quick comment about the greens.  In none of my posts do I make any descriptions of the contouring of the greens. This is not because they are uninteresting.  It is because they are so big and have so many contours (many subtle, other less so) that it is impossible to make brief comments about any green.  From the pin location on day one to the location on day two I saw so many subtleties on the greens I didn't notice the first day.  Each green has, I would guess, at least 10 pinnable locations.  I can comment a bit on the greens but I did not come even close to taking in most things about them.  One need play the course many times (or have a much keener eye than I) to make educated statements about the greens at The Dunes.

For example, the square footage of the first three greens are (approximately):  15120 feet, 14580 feet, and 18500 feet.  Compare this to an average green of about 5,000 feet!  That's 3+ greens in one!

The green on 4 is 80 yards long, the green on 9 is 50 yards wide, and the green on 16 is 82 yards long with a square footage in the range of 22150 sq.ft.

[Mark Saltzman]

View from the Double Black Tee (214 Yards):




View from Black Tee (145 Yards - playing 125 to a front pin - 5 iron into wind)




View from White Tee (on 138 Blue tee box - playing 169 to a back pin - 8 iron downwind)





Approaching the green from the front left:






The unbelievable 4th green is split in two by a ridge that is some 4' tall.  Pictures of the green are a bit confusing because they were taken on separate days with different pins.

From front left:




From back right to a back pin:




From back right to a front pin:




From center of green to front portion of green:





From center of green to back portion of green:




A look back at the awesome 4th from the 5th fairway:

[Adam Clayman]

Mark, There was really only one aspect that one could nit pick about the Dunes. That is, some of those big greens, negate some of the strategic merit off of the tee.  I think it's the 6th hole, with the notch between the dunes, on approach. The green is so big, and almost completely invisible from the LZ, it really didn't matter where you decided to play your tee shot. The 5th hole, with it's smaller green, made the choice off the tee important. Not so on 6. What say you?

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark, There was really only one aspect that one could nit pick about the Dunes. That is, some of those big greens, negate some of the strategic merit off of the tee.  I think it's the 6th hole, with the notch between the dunes, on approach. The green is so big, and almost completely invisible from the LZ, it really didn't matter where you decided to play your tee shot. The 5th hole, with it's smaller green, made the choice off the tee important. Not so on 6. What say you?

Adam,

I'm not sure I agree, though I hadn't thought of it this way.  The hole with the notch is 8.  The first time I went through I thought where you placed your tee shot doesn't matter either, but on my second go around I realized that actually playing right of the centerline bunker and making the hole a bit longer, one can get a fairly clear view of the green.  Or on a day like today with 8 playing straight downwind, I hit a 3 wood all the way almost into that notch giving me a good view.  Though none of this answers your question.

I guess my question to you is: just because you are able to hit the green from a less desirable position in the fairway, does that necessarily take away from the strategic merit off the tee? That is, you are able to hit the green from some less desirable locations, but so what?  You're not making birdie from 100' away on the green.  On many golf courses, missing the pin by 100' would mean you're in some sort of hazard but at the Dunes you're on the green, probably about to three-putt (but probably enjoying it more than dropping out of a water hazard or flailing at a bunker shot).  If you want to get close to the pin, it is done much easier by placing the tee shot in the correct spot.  Hitting the fairway in the wrong spot will likely still give you a chance at par because of the large greens, but I'm still not sure that takes away from the strategic interest of the tee shots.

Let's take hole 5.  What if that green doubled in size.  Now take a pin tucked just over the false front on the front left portion of the green. If you want to get close to that pin, you really want to play it down the left.  If you mishit your tee shot and hit it down the right, you're not getting close to the pin.  Now you have a much bigger target so you can easily play away from the pin and leave a long putt and thus a chance at par, but again, I'm not sure this takes away from the strategic interest of the tee shot.

As a side note the course should be giving you pin sheets or Bushnells (or using a color-coded flag system) because there are many semi-blind/uphill approach shots and with greens 75 yards deep simply knowing the line the pin is on is not enough.  The green on 6, for example, is straight uphill.  I had no idea where on the green the pin was, so I figured middle and hit it flush to just past the middle.  Pin was front.  The yardage I used was some 30 yards off the actual number.

[George Freeman]

I guess my question to you is: just because you are able to hit the green from a less desirable position in the fairway, does that necessarily take away from the strategic merit off the tee? That is, you are able to hit the green from some less desirable locations, but so what?  You're not making birdie from 100' away on the green.  On many golf courses, missing the pin by 100' would mean you're in some sort of hazard but at the Dunes you're on the green, probably about to three-putt (but probably enjoying it more than dropping out of a water hazard or flailing at a bunker shot).  If you want to get close to the pin, it is done much easier by placing the tee shot in the correct spot.  Hitting the fairway in the wrong spot will likely still give you a chance at par because of the large greens, but I'm still not sure that takes away from the strategic interest of the tee shots.

Great explanation Mark.  Really enjoying the tour!

[Wade Whitehead]

The course looks fantastic.

Why is there OB on two?  I can't figure any reason to stake it unless the hole runs right against the property line (and I can't imagine it does).

WW

[David Kelly]

Tony,

I would bag Swope, Chisolm and fly into Wichita instead, skip Sand Creek Station and spend all of the saved time at Prairie Dunes and then proceed with the rest of your itinerary.

[Tony_Chapman]

Tony,

I would bag Swope, Chisolm and fly into Wichita instead, skip Sand Creek Station and spend all of the saved time at Prairie Dunes and then proceed with the rest of your itinerary.

David -- I find it very, very difficult to disagree with you. But, thought I'd throw out some other options that would make flying into Kansas City feasible. Prairie Dunes is out of this world, for sure.

[Jim Johnson]

Great thread Mark, keep 'er going.

Here's a photo from last year's July long weekend with my wife standing beside the 4th green, just to show perspective of that devilish and nasty green. But things like that are what one remembers. Even a year later.




Mark, what did you think of the greens? I came off the Dunes Course after our first 18 and walked into the pro shop and asked what they'd seeded the greens with. I was really impressed with how good they rolled.

Jim

[Tom_Doak]

I can see already why this course did not fare so well with some panelist types ... it's very complex, and anybody would have to play it a few times before they could really begin to understand the best way around.

Of course, that is true of a number of the world's best courses.  But in this era, it's a risk to assume that people will take the time to appreciate what you were trying to do.

[Mike Benham]

 ... it's very complex

Tom - can I ask you to expand upon your comment, what are the complexities that you see?

 

[George Pazin]

Just guessing, and hopefully Tom will comment for himself, but it looks like there aren't clearly defined options/challenges. Huge plus to me, not so much for a lot of golfers. I call it grayscale golf, as opposed to black and white golf, which tends to be more prevalent, in my limited experience.

-----

Thanks very much, Mark, for these pics, and all of the other pics you've been sharing recently. They are much appreciated. Looking forward to the rest of this tour and any others you might care to share.

[Adam Clayman]

I can see already why this course did not fare so well with some panelist types ... it's very complex, and anybody would have to play it a few times before they could really begin to understand the best way around.

Of course, that is true of a number of the world's best courses.  But in this era, it's a risk to assume that people will take the time to appreciate what you were trying to do.

You mean the best courses in the world have a "best way"?



One other aspect of the Dunes is the routing coming home. The closing stretch, goes in mostly the same direction. That's not something that one should miss on their initial visit. is it?  Considering the wind in that region, having the same wind, for that many holes in a row, makes me think they got too far away and had to get back. Is that possible?