[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Who deserves the credit at Olympic has always been confusing. One source credits Wilfred Reid, another Willie Watson, some Sam Whiting, have seen Raynor mentioned, Trent Jones and even Max Behr. Who did what, who deserves the bulk of the credit?

And assuming Watson is responsible for the original Ocean course, does he not get enough credit in general? Has anyone played some of his better work - like a Belvedere (Mi), Harding Park, Ft.Washington in Fresno, etc.? Anything standout about his designs?

[Steve Meeker]

Tom,

Interesting question and interesting story.  The Olympic Club, which was an amateur athletic club at the time with no golf facility, decided in 1918 to lease and operate the financially troubled Lakeside Golf Club in the southwestern corner of the City. This course designed by Scottish architect Wilfrid Reid, had just opened in 1917.

Seth Raynor was brought in immediately to provide a re-design of this difficult course but for some reason his plan was never implemented.

Due to the growing popularity of golf, the club decided to build two new courses and a 9- hole “Northcliffe” course.  Construction of the courses began in 1921 with the entire layout being designed by Willie Watson, another famous Scottish architect of the day.  Construction was done by Olympic’s Golf Course Superintendant, Sam Whiting.

Heavy rains caused severe mudslides west of Skyline Blvd in 1925-1926 destroying a large portion of the Ocean Links.  Sam Whiting then laid out plans for re-routing both courses and additional land was leased from the City of San Francisco to complete the project in 1927.

In 1955, Robert Trent Jones completed some remodeling of the Lake course pior to the US Open.  This included lengthening the course by some 300 yards and the addition of the lone fairway bunker on hole #6.

The Ocean Course had several “in-house” re-routings during the 1950’s and 1960’s and following winter storms of 1983 and severe storms from El Nino in 1996, the Ocean was essentially completely redesigned by Tom Weiskopf and opened in 2000.

The 9 hole Cliffs Course, designed by Weiskopf and Moorish, was rebuilt and opened in 1995.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Don't forget Gib's favorite part of the Lake cse...the green on 15 courtesy of Mr. Weiskopf.

Speaking of 15, what happened to the tree behind the green?  

[Gib_Papazian]

Steve,

It has always been my impression the Raynor plan was not implimented due to the War and afterwards because the club wanted 36 holes . . .  

What a shame because following the design, the club was excited enough to feature Raynor on the cover of the Olympian Magazine with an interview. Raynor described it as a sort of west coast version of the Lido Club.

Go get a look at Dan Wexler's book "Missing Links" - it could have been ours.  

When we decided to rebuild the Ocean Course following the recent slides, I suggested to our club president and green chairman that we ought to explore building a modified version of those plans or at least incorporating some of the holes because the land was perfect for it.

Blank looks all around . . . . . "who is Seth Raynor?"

Can you imagine? We could have built an updated Lido!

What an opportunity!!!!!!!!! lost lost lost.

The Ocean is a terrific course now, but . . . . . .

[Gib_Papazian]

Kevin,

It is too damned bad that tree behind #15 didn't fall over on the green . . . . don't get me started. I'd be happy to recontour the putting surface for the club. Barring that, we can just airlift it to Troon North where it belongs.


Speaking of putting surfaces, the 2nd green on the Ocean Course was the last one built and John Fleming was trying to figure out a way to get it  to drain out the back right side.  

I called George Bahto, who drew up a Reverse-Redan and Joe Bernat roughed it out on the dozer . . . . . it looked absolutely superb. A perfect fit with the existing grade. Sexy.

Fleming and Bernat were thrilled.

Well, guess who showed up for a site visit the next day?

Weiskpf ordered it blown up IMMEDATELY - and stood there while it was demolished.

    

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

A wild history. Any idea why they were so anxious to improve Reid's Lakeside? What year did Raynor redesign the course and does a plan exist? When Watson was called in did he work within the original Lakeside framework or start over?  When did the trees come, were they planted by someone or did they just appear naturally over time? Whitten has Max Behr at Olympic in 1926, is it possible he was called in to help Whiting with the redesign - I know MacKenzie was there at the time because The Olympian interviewed him in around '26 before he went to Australia. I'm wondering if that is where he met Behr.

[John_Conley]

Does anything stand out in his designs?

Yes.

Interlachen and Minikahda were both originally designed by Willie Watson.  Both were later worked on by Donald Ross.

That tells me they were either:
a) not very good, or
b) underappreciated.

[George Bahto]

Tom: the Raynor / Olympic story is one of the feature pieces in my book - he drew up the plans in 1918 (WWI era !!) - the club did not act for years and Raynor's plans were never implemented - shame because it had some of the best holes he ever drew up - the plan will be in the book

damn - this was supposed to have been kept quiet

anyhow - the interview with the club member who walked the property with him is there too - he finally got the very reticent Mr Raynor to open up during the portrait session

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

George
Thanks for wetting our appetities. That had to be pretty early in Raynor's solo activities.

Steve/Gib
Any idea why the disatisfaction with Reid's Lakeside? I don't know much about Reid, but I don't think he did much on the West coast, might his Lakeside design been a quick one? The redesign by Raynor is right around the time Tillinghast redesigned SFGC, maybe their Lakeside didn't compare too favorably and they wanted to keep up with the Joneses? Any thoughts?

[Steve Meeker]

Tom,

I understand that the Reid course was "too difficult" in the eyes of the membership especially a beginning new golf membership. Raynor was brought in immediately but  the Raynor design was an 18 hole layout and when the club management decided that they wanted 36 holes on the property, the Raynor design didn't work and Watson was available and did the 36 hole design.

I'm sure Mr Bahto's book on the subject will be more complete and fascinating.

[Gib_Papazian]

That Raynor plan would have to be on the short list of the greatest courses never built! Of course, I have never been able to ascertain the exact orientation of the plan on the topography of the property.

Sadly, it might have gone the way of Lido after the inevitable slides . . . . but there is no reason it could not have been built on the other side of the road.

    

[Joel Stewart]

Gib:
Do you know what RTJ did exactly on the lake.  Besides the bunker on #6 it was my understanding he did the 3 level green on #7.  Also which holes added the extra length, I'll assume #16?

We should have the Raynor plans framed down by the grill room to show everyone what could have been.....

[Scott Clem]

Kevin,
 
     Actually, FOUR (count 'em) four trees were taken out behind fifteen green. ( I buried one of the stumps back there) All that's left are two scrub oaks. There are plans to plant more low growing foliage, i.e. acacia behind the green. As for Gib's dream, one of those pines ALMOST landed on the greeen- you can still see the damage where it "missed its mark"

[Scott Clem]

Steve Meeker.
      It's good to see you on this site! I met you the other day before the greens committee meeting. Hope to to talk some serious golf with you soon!
-Scott

[Kevin_Reilly]

Scott:

Believe me, Gib is not the only one with that dream!    I remember during the Nicklaus-Miller WWOG match both of them were going back and forth about how severe (relative to the other greens) the green was.  Given that Miller is the creator of greens like THe Bridges  , that tells me a lot.

Hope to see you around some day.  I don't make it out there much (couple of times a year...family, work, etc) but maybe 2002 will be different.  I remember Steve M from the club championship about 10 years ago...he waxed me in the first round about 4 and 3.  I haven't played in it since then....memories too painful.  

[Gib_Papazian]

Joel,

The Raynor plan hangs on the wall in the locker room along the wall behind the television seating area. George drew up a crystal clear interpretation of it that was forwarded to the  former Green Committee. I have a copy if you would like to see it.

That oppotunity may be lost forever, but I think our recent change of leadership is definitely going to put things on the right track.    

[Scott Clem]

Kevin,

Shoot me an e-mail next time you come out. I'll look forward to meeting you.(scottclem1@aol.com) Maybe we can tee it up. At the least, it would be good to hear your comments about our other tree removals, since there is quite a bit still going on. Most of it has to do with providing more sunlight to the Lake course's many shaded greens and tees. (At least seven were removed recently from the tenth tee, and many more left of four green) I personally like how it has opened up some of Olympic's claustrophobic corridors. That, or I just don't hit it that straight

And regarding Mr. Meeker, thanks for the tip. I'll be careful if I ever end up in a "friendly" game with him.  

Cheers!

[Ran Morrissett]

A number of the holes DEMAND an aerial approach on the Lakeside course, which I find curious for such an old design.

How many greens do the regulars try and bounce the ball onto in dry conditions? Certainly, the 10th which I think of as a very underrated hole. Where else? 3?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Ran, let Gib answer this for sure. I remember 5,6,9,10. 11 or 12 being run up holes. Gib knows the course like most of us only know certain parts of our anatomy. It is a pleasure to watch him play the ground game at Olympic Lake.

[Kevin_Reilly]

How many greens do the regulars try and bounce the ball onto in dry conditions? Certainly, the 10th which I think of as a very underrated hole. Where else? 3?

Going in order, in dry conditions, 1, 3, 4, sometimes 5, a little bit on 9, 10, maybe 14 (depending on your angle of approach).  That's about it, I think.

[Kevin_Reilly]

At the least, it would be good to hear your comments about our other tree removals, since there is quite a bit still going on.

I would imagine that most of my comments would be favorable. The only removal I noticed the last time was 15, and I liked it.  The tee shot on 4 seemed to have been neutered a bit as well, which I'm not sure how I feel about.

The other kind of removal I'd like is cart path removal. I hate them with a passion.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I have felt Gib was the natural man for this subject. I want to thank him for the lessons taught to me at this course by him and his love of the game and his home club. The fairways and the incredibly great run of par 4's will always stay with me and excite me about the next visit to the Bay area. I hope each of your dreams about Raynoring the club come true.

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