Public Links at Bandon Dunes

[Richard Choi]

I wonder what the people who were not so hot on OldMac because the driving provides no challenge and how easy the course is, are saying now...

[Joe Bentham]

I'm not sure what the perception is out there in cyber space, but the scores yesterday at Old Mac where good.  The scoring conditions where good and a lot of players took advantage in the afternoon.  If you haven't been here there is no way to explain it to you.  And if you have been here then you might understand how hard Old Mac is when you play it from the back of the back boxes to all the tough pin locations.
A player in the field this week who also played in the US Open at Congressional this year was one better there then he was here, 153-154.  He said Old Mac was tougher yesterday morning then Congressional was either of the days he played it.
The Public Links field is strong and I think everybody would've been amazed at how much higher the scores would've been yesterday had the north wind blown.
Getting your ball close at Old Mac is a challenge for even a group of highly skilled and ranked amateurs.  So sitting at home and calling the scores high is really, really easy.
 

[Terry Lavin]

Can't wait to see the golf on the Golf Channel tomorrow.  The thought of a nationally televised amateur championship at Bandon Trails/Old Macdonald is really pretty special.

[William_G]

I'm not sure what the perception is out there in cyber space, but the scores yesterday at Old Mac where good.  The scoring conditions where good and a lot of players took advantage in the afternoon.  If you haven't been here there is no way to explain it to you.  And if you have been here then you might understand how hard Old Mac is when you play it from the back of the back boxes to all the tough pin locations.
A player in the field this week who also played in the US Open at Congressional this year was one better there then he was here, 153-154.  He said Old Mac was tougher yesterday morning then Congressional was either of the days he played it.
The Public Links field is strong and I think everybody would've been amazed at how much higher the scores would've been yesterday had the north wind blown.
Getting your ball close at Old Mac is a challenge for even a group of highly skilled and ranked amateurs.  So sitting at home and calling the scores high is really, really easy.
 

Back tees to tough hole locations, enough said...doubt the pros would shoot 62/63 even in benign conditions. Thaks

[Jim Nugent]

I just looked at the scoring stats.  Looks to me like the 82.6 average at Old Mac was for the women.  I think the men's average in medal play was 76. 

The 4 toughest holes there against par, in order starting with the hardest, were #10 (Bottle), #9 (Cape), #12 (Redan) and #11 (Road).  The field averaged slightly more than 2 strokes over par on those 4 holes alone.  i.e. each was almost a perfect half par, from the hard side. 

Of the par 3s, the Biarritz was easily the toughest, at 3.523.  The field averaged nearly 1.5 strokes over par on the par 3s.  The number in parentheses gives the rank of the hole in difficulty. 

#2 Eden:        3.439   (6)
#5 Short:       3.194   (12)
#8 Biarritz      3.297   (10)
#12 Redan     3.523   (3)

Only one hole - #15 Westward Ho, par 5 - played under par that day, and then just barely, at 4.961. 

At Bandon Trails, #3 (a par 4) averaged 5.205.  #2, a par 3, averaged 3.923, and #1 averaged 4.538.  Brutal start to that round.  Also, the shortest hole on the course, #5 listed at 126 yards, averaged 3.603.

[Tom_Doak]

I just looked at the scoring stats.  Looks to me like the 82.6 average at Old Mac was for the women.  I think the men's average in medal play was 76. 

The 4 toughest holes there against par, in order starting with the hardest, were #10 (Bottle), #9 (Cape), #12 (Redan) and #11 (Road).  The field averaged slightly more than 2 strokes over par on those 4 holes alone.  i.e. each was almost a perfect half par, from the hard side. 

Of the par 3s, the Biarritz was easily the toughest, at 3.523.  The field averaged nearly 1.5 strokes over par on the par 3s.  The number in parentheses gives the rank of the hole in difficulty. 

#2 Eden:        3.439   (6)
#5 Short:       3.194   (12)
#8 Biarritz      3.297   (10)
#12 Redan     3.523   (3)

Only one hole - #15 Westward Ho, par 5 - played under par that day, and then just barely, at 4.961. 

At Bandon Trails, #3 (a par 4) averaged 5.205.  #2, a par 3, averaged 3.923, and #1 averaged 4.538.  Brutal start to that round.  Also, the shortest hole on the course, #5 listed at 126 yards, averaged 3.603.

Jim N:  I tired for a few minutes to make some sense of the scoring averages for Old Macdonald, but then gave it up as useless.  It's all dependent on the wind and on the hole locations -- #9 is a pretty good example -- that is not one of the hardest holes on the course, unless the southwest wind is blowing.

Likewise, the only thing I got from your analysis of Bandon Trails is that those first three holes must have been playing into the wind.  And did they change par on the third hole for the event?  In real life, it's a short par-5, though it would usually play downwind in summer and be easily reachable for these guys.

[Steve Kline]

Tom - they made it a par 4 for the event.

Is that really necessary? Are we worried about par in amateur event? Just play the course as it is. I know par is a fictitious number anyway, but when a whole plays more than 1 stroke over par on average for a fairly elite field I think that is ridiculous.

[Jerry Kluger]

I remember at Chambers Bay that the course really beat the heck out of them in the stroke play but the more they played it the better they scored and I presume it was because they learned how to play it - in the end they wound up with the best players advancing and I presume that will be the case here. I can't wait to see it on TV.

[William_G]

Tom - they made it a par 4 for the event.

Is that really necessary? Are we worried about par in amateur event? Just play the course as it is. I know par is a fictitious number anyway, but when a whole plays more than 1 stroke over par on average for a fairly elite field I think that is ridiculous.

The summer wind became a winter wind and the USGA setup back fired, I was surprised to see #3 change to a par 4.

Frankly, a little tired of "the USGA set-up", what happened to play it as you find it???

[JMEvensky]

Tom - they made it a par 4 for the event.

Is that really necessary? Are we worried about par in amateur event? Just play the course as it is. I know par is a fictitious number anyway, but when a whole plays more than 1 stroke over par on average for a fairly elite field I think that is ridiculous.

I don't know the hole in question,but it's possible/probable that it was made a 4-par for pace of play.

If there's a 5-par that's reachable by half the field,you frequently get a bottleneck with so many guys waiting for the green to clear.Sometimes it's better to just move the tee markers forward so everyone will be able to reach.

Again,I don't know if this is what happened at Bandon,but it's done.

[Adam Clayman]

Joe, I'd like to hear your opinion of what George Bahto was trying to ask?

Are the players adapting to the game at Bandon? This of course implies they are not well suited to play the game the way it does on tawny fast turf.

Also, Would you say it's their unfamiliarity with the ground game that yielded high scores, or the nature of the architecture, or both?

Thanx and feel free to expound in any direction you'd like.

[Sean Leary]

I remember at Chambers Bay that the course really beat the heck out of them in the stroke play but the more they played it the better they scored and I presume it was because they learned how to play it - in the end they wound up with the best players advancing and I presume that will be the case here. I can't wait to see it on TV.

Same at Merion a few years ago...

[Richard Choi]

I remember at Chambers Bay that the course really beat the heck out of them in the stroke play but the more they played it the better they scored and I presume it was because they learned how to play it - in the end they wound up with the best players advancing and I presume that will be the case here. I can't wait to see it on TV.

Same at Merion a few years ago...

There are two reasons why the averages went down after the stroke play at Chambers.

The course was firmer than what USGA wanted so they drenched the place with water after the stroke play was done. The course played much softer in the match play. They also moved up many of the tees so that the course played a lot shorter.

[Joe Bentham]

I think the players are struggling a bit with the short game.  From what I've seen most of the men's field is trying to play the ground game, they just aren't sure how to execute.  The player I carried for during qualifying was very comfortable hitting 8-9 irons chips, at times too comfortable.  There where several instances at Old Mac where I thought he should have lofted the ball in the air (front side of #6 at Old Mac for instance).  At this level the players can hit the lofted chip shots off the tight lies.  So sometimes when presented with an opportunity to hit it in the air, they should IMO.
Old Macdonald requires that you get your golf ball in the right sections of those massive greens.  When you've missed those sections getting your lag putts close is almost impossible.  And if you've missed greens there is so much contour to deal with that a highly skilled players best option is often to carry it over some of the slope, taking it out of play.  I think some of the field had convinced themselves that shot wasn't the right one BEFORE they got here and that is complicating their thought process.  I'm not saying they shouldn't be playing it along the ground, they just shouldn't be married to that shot all the time.
As for #3 at Trails, I think moving the tees up and playing it like a par 4 was a great idea.  None of the players I seen even considered laying up short of the center bunker because of how far the hole played yardage wise.  So most of the field was trying to land their tee ball on either side of that trap, which is a really narrow target.  And by making it a par 4 it forced the players into thinking they had to play it like a par 4.  Great idea by the USGA IMO.

[Richard Choi]

Joe, that is very interesting as at last year's US Am at Chambers I thought players were using the sand wedge way too much. It was pretty rare to see people using bump and run even as the lies were very tight and rolling the ball was definitely the better play.

Perhaps a lot of these players got burned from last year and have over-adjusted?

[George Pazin]

One of the most amazing things about watching pro golf to me is how terrific they are at bump and run type shots. All you see week in and week out is aerial drop and stop golf, yet when they have to - either on recovery shots, or the rare firm and fast type of dictated shot - they manage to hit it remarkably close time and time again.

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I wonder if weekend scores are always better, simply because the better golfers are left and the lesser golfers are gone.

[JMEvensky]

I wonder if weekend scores are always better, simply because the better golfers are left and the lesser golfers are gone.

I think you're right with the following adjustment.It's not so much that the remaining golfers are "better",just that they're playing better.

As I re-read your line,it looks like that's what you probably meant.So now,I just agree without the adjustment.

[George Pazin]

That is indeed what I meant, and I like your wording better. You are a better writer than I - or at least wrote better in this instance.

[JMEvensky]

That is indeed what I meant, and I like your wording better. You are a better writer than I - or at least wrote better in this instance.

I'm glad I re-read more closely.

Whenever I see "lesser" player in the same sentence as a USGA event,I usually think the worst.It never ceases to amaze me that guys who can't play dead would diss someone who's qualified for a tournament at this level.There aren't any "lesser" players in these fields.

[Jud_T]

I think the players are struggling a bit with the short game.  From what I've seen most of the men's field is trying to play the ground game, they just aren't sure how to execute.  The player I carried for during qualifying was very comfortable hitting 8-9 irons chips, at times too comfortable.  There where several instances at Old Mac where I thought he should have lofted the ball in the air (front side of #6 at Old Mac for instance).  At this level the players can hit the lofted chip shots off the tight lies.  So sometimes when presented with an opportunity to hit it in the air, they should IMO.
Old Macdonald requires that you get your golf ball in the right sections of those massive greens.  When you've missed those sections getting your lag putts close is almost impossible.  And if you've missed greens there is so much contour to deal with that a highly skilled players best option is often to carry it over some of the slope, taking it out of play.  I think some of the field had convinced themselves that shot wasn't the right one BEFORE they got here and that is complicating their thought process.  I'm not saying they shouldn't be playing it along the ground, they just shouldn't be married to that shot all the time.

Joe,

Interesting color.  This shot separates the men from the boys off that turf IMO and sounds like the right call in certain instances such as you describe.  Can't wait to see the telecast.

P.S. Please, under no circumstances recommend that shot to me next month....

[Wade Whitehead]

To Cliff's question: Having played in a number of US Public Links qualifiers (before joining a private club) I can attest that there are few, if any, players in the field without anytime access to private clubs.  They exploit loopholes to compete in the Championship.  There may be bonafide public golf course players in qualifiers but eventual roster for the event itself is essentially made of collegiate players.

Does anyone really believe Ms. Woods doesn't play at at least one private club?

WW

[Ted Cahill]

Folks- forgive me while I gush a bit.  This is exciting for me to read Joe's account of the PubLinks.  Here is why:  I had a course in college that analysed culture.  Two different observations stuck with me.  Pop culture was defined as a mass audience that consumed the culture from an artist from afar and the audience and artist would never genuinely interact.  High culture (forgive the snotty title) was explained as a more intimate culture where the audience and the artist interacted and knew each other- discussed and critiqued & appreciated the culture together.  Where am I going with this?  For most of my life, I have been an enthusiastic sports fan of major league teams and sports (pop culture).  I witnessed from afar, never knew the players etc....  In recent years, I have decreased my interest in major league sports and replaced it with an interest in golf and GCA.  I am a frequent flyer at Bandon Dunes.  I take Joe as my looper when he is available.  I really enjoy are rounds together talking about golf, GCA and the lastest at Bandon Dunes.  It feels like "high culture" to read his reports from the PubLinks- I (as well as many of us) have played the same holes- been thwarted by the same brillant design (although I am a hack and these players are stix)- I can feel Joe's enthusiasm for the event.  I'll never set foot on Wrigley Field or Candelstick Park- or meet & discuss the nature of baseball and football with the players on those teams.  But golf, Bandon Dunes, this DG allows us enthusiasts to actually feel closer to the sport we love/hate but can't leave 

[Jud_T]

Very cool to see Old Mac on TV.  Hopefully we'll get to see some of the earlier holes on today's coverage.  Charlie Rymer was really pushing the brown, firm/fast, ground game agenda on air as well.

[Garland Bayley]

The men's medalist hit it right on 16 to where he could see the flag, and then proceeded to close out his match there. Afterwards, when interviewed he said he was using a local caddy and the caddy tells him to hit it places he wouldn't normally choose.

Joe,

Are the caddies at Bandon telling the players to hit it right to remove the blindness of the alps?

[Tim Leahy]

I watched for the first time last night and I couldn't help but notice the greens on OldMac were very fuzzy. Was that because of the wind? Are they trying to keep the balls from moving with long greens or are they that way all the time to give the course an old time feel?