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Patrick_Mucci

A great surprise in Southampton
« on: June 26, 2011, 08:26:54 PM »
So, I drive out to Southampton Thursday afternoon and tee off at NGLA with some other fellows.

As I play, I'm again reminded how spectacular the golf course is.
Anyone studying architecture should study the green complexes at NGLA, they're simply brilliant.

So, we hit to the 6th green and the lightening siren goes off.
We head to the nearest shelter, which is the maintainance barn.
In there we find Bill Salinetti and his crew, Dave and Mike from Cyrstal Downs, Paul the irrigation consultant and a few other interesting parties and three foursomes.

We examine the schematic of the irrigation system, which is quite impressive.
We discuss golf course architecture and Bill produces a big, mounted 3'X3' 1938 photo of NGLA, Shinnecock and Southampton.
There are other interesting photos of NGLA, some dating to 1911.
We see one from 1911 taken behind the 9th tee, looking up the fairway where the 9th tee has been sodded and there's barely a tree in sight.
Dave calls Tom Doak and says there's someone here who's been talking about you and GCGC. Tom laughs and I may have a new mission.   Dave takes a picture of me holding up a sign and promises to send it to Tom with a copy to me.

It's raining like in "Caddyshack"  The heavy stuff isn't coming down for a while.
We spend two hours having a great time.
It rains 3 inches.

The next morning the course is great.
How they did it would have been a mystery if Bill hadn't told us about the abundance of dry wells he installs over the winters.
They appear to have been super effective as the playing surfaces are great.
Not once does any mud or debris come on the golf ball and the lies and speed of the greens is terrific.

In our discussion the previous day, we discussed green speeds, the contours, hole locations and the word was that 12.5 is about the maximum the greens can be before vital hole locations are lost.  Anything from 10.0 to 12.5 is probably ideal at NGLA.

Some of the hole locations are just frightening, like on # 13, all the way back on a little plateau.
# 15 on the top middle and left, # 11 on the left side plateau, # 7 on the front right.
On each hole there are so many great locations.

The next day we qualify for the tournament, teeing off at 7:40 am.
After lunch, we drive over to Southampton to meet Gene Greco, who through some extraordinary efforts and through a special exemption for those of us playing in the tournament, was able to get us on the golf course.

I had heard mixed reviews on Southampton, most of them..... mediocre.
Although, some had mentioned that a recent project had produced positive results.
That's an understatement.

I get to the course and am joined by two very good golfers, one who's not involved with GCA and another who's very much in tune with GCA and our 4th, an esteemed dentist.

One of the other fellows is from Long Island.
He made some comments about how crazy the people on GCA.com were, including me.
I admit to everything he says, well, almost everything.

As we're waiting to tee off, an elderly gentleman comes over and engages us in conversation.
It turns out that he caddied for Charles Blair Macdonald.
We talk about golf, architecture and other matters before teeing off.

We look at the scorecard, a mere 6,359.
What a pushover this was going to be.
After playing 7,000+ yard golf courses this was going to be a birdie fest.
Boy, were we wrong.
The air in the East End is heavy, laden with moisture off the water, and it's cooler.
With the wet spring, roll is minimal.  This golf course played big, well beyond its yardage.

Southampton sits lower than Shinnecock, NGLA and Sebonack and is relatively flat, although, the 4th hole has some elevation and is a really good hole.   But, overall, it's a low profile golf course.  I think that's what makes me fall in love with the fairway bunkering.

The fairway bunkers aren't deep, but, have three foot berms (approx) fronting them, giving them a ferocious and intimidating look from the tee.
I also love the RANDOM bunker patterns.
One hole in particular, along with # 1 has great fairway bunkering, # 17 can confuse the golfer on their tee shot and their second shot.
It reminds me a lot of the 14th hole at Westhampton, with the random bunker patterns off the tee and on the second shot..

Back to # 1.

The fairway bunkering is deceptive to the eye.
On # 1, the left side fairway bunker turns out to be a diagonal bunker, something that wasn't clearly discernable from the tee.
It makes the bunker more challenging to fly.

The second hole is the short, a wonderful short.

I should mention that all of the greens are huge, offering an incredible variety of hole locations, enabling the holes to play differently every day.

All of the greens have some pretty good movement, either in the form of contour, slope or both.
And the greenside bunkering is great, with many back bunkers, which make the back hole locations so demanding and risky.

# 3 is a neat dogleg over a hill to a "maiden" green.

# 4, a strong, terrific par 4 to a green purched up high, with NO room for error long.

# 5, a neat short, drivable hole with a great center bunker that tempts the player to go for it.  But, the dentist wouldn't be tempted, he layed up while the rest of us hit pretty good drives just short of the green.

# 6, a wonderful doglet with fabulous elbow bunkering and a backstop similar to a punchbowl backstop.

# 7, the redan.  Flattish tee to green, with disaster left and a huge interesting green.

# 8 was another great hole, long par 4, 444, double plateau green.

# 9, another long par 4 with a great punchbowl green.

Before going further, Southampton has reclaimed a good deal of the lost greens with many of them squared off.
The putting surfaces are huge and unique.

On to the back nine.

# 10 is a neat Eden hole.

# 11 another neat par 4.

# 12, our first par 5.  While only 510 it played longer and had neat bunker patterns and a great green with a bunker behind it.
The front right of the green had a feature not disimilar from that of # 13 at Westhampton.

# 13, a neat dogleg that's disorienting off the tee.  You don't know how much to bite off.

# 14, a hybrid Biarritz.  One of the fellows said you can call it a "Biar" or a "Ritz", but you can't call it a pure Biarritz.
The green and flanking bunkers were neat.

#15,  A long par 4 over a rise, not drivable today, into a nice size green.

# 16  A shortish par 4 with a neat punchbowl green.

# 17, a terrific par 5 with great bunkering.

# 18, a semi long, 397 par 4 into the "road hole" like green.

Fairways in nice shape, greens in nice shape.
At speeds a little higher, the greens would be very challenging.

The wind seems to be a material factor and as I indicated, it's a heavy wind that has a significant influence on the ball.

Southampton is the kind of course, that makes you want to go from the 18th green to the first tee.
It's fun, sporty and challenging.

One fellow, who's been in the Hamptons since the 60's, couldn't believe that he'd never played it.
He also thought it was terrific.

I'm told that Brian Silva did the work and it's terrific work.
When combined with the tree removal, the results are impressive.

It's a terrific golf course and I still can't believe it's only 6,359.
It plays significantly bigger.

My one comment would be that I'd change the scorecard to reflect the template hole moniker.

I take that back.  My second comment is that they should listen to Gene Greco, he's been playing there for a long time and gets it and he gets what needs to be done to continue improving the course.

It's a wonderful course that unfortunately sits in the shadow of giants.

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2011, 08:30:36 PM »
Patrick, I'm just going to say aloud that I really dislike you...saying you drive out to play NGLA as if it were a local public course. Yes, Patrick, you are definitely disliked by me.  ;) ;)

JC Jones

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Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2011, 08:31:16 PM »
This happens to me all the time.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Bill_McBride

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Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2011, 08:44:23 PM »
GREEN WITH ENVY!

What a great day.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2011, 08:47:15 PM »
Jamie & JC.

What I'm really excited about is the 2013 Walker Cup at NGLA.

This event will give many the opportunity to see NGLA under competitive conditions.

While I was at NGLA I was introduced to a photographer who's done the photos for some great golf books.

He told me that in the 30 or so years he's been photographing golf holes, he's been unable to capture contour and elevation.

So, while many will watch the Walker Cup on TV, I can't encourage you strongly enough to purchase tickets and attend in person.

You will NOT regret it.

It's simply spectacular.

There is nothing in golf like National.
It is unique.

But, this thread is about Southampton, so let's keep it on track and not divert it.

I'll start or continue my "enchanted journey" thread in a while.


Keith OHalloran

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Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2011, 08:55:10 PM »
Pat,
I am glad that you finally made it to Southampton GC. We are all excited about the renovation, and very thankful for the years of effort that some people put in to convince the membership that it was worth the gamble. We are looking forward to the next few years as the conditions mature and the greens speed up a bit.
As for the yardage, I have always thought that the par 34 front plays much longer than the card indicates. I believe that the front nine is as difficult in relation to par as any 9 holes on the east end.

jeffwarne

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Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2011, 09:10:14 PM »
Pat,
Had you played Southampton before?

It's always been a wonderful course.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ronald Montesano

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Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2011, 09:22:01 PM »
He told me that in the 30 or so years he's been photographing golf holes, he's been unable to capture contour and elevation.

I cannot agree more...at Mohawk today, there were so many subtle contours, ridges and panes on the greens (the 17th has what I call pectoral muscles at the back, not boobs, pecs!) that I wanted to capture and I simply couldn't. The camera is two-dimensional, while the eye sees tres dimensiones!!

Southampton is on the list at #1 for Long Island Lapse 2012
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2011, 09:37:49 PM »
Jeff,

I had not played it, but was told by several people that it had a bowling alley feel, narrow, lined by trees, with many of the original bunkers removed.

The restored and sometimes moved bunkers were identified, one by one.

The expanded putting surfaces are substantial and will add to the playing experience.

Mike Sweeney

Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2011, 09:46:13 PM »
Patrick

I have actually never played Westhampton and only saw 16 holes of Southampton the redo last November. Thus you are maybe the best qualified to answer:

How would you split 10 rounds between Southampton, Westhampton and Mountain Lake - 3 "quiet" Raynor courses?

jeffwarne

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Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2011, 10:00:11 PM »
Patrick,
You make a good observation about 13.
It is disorienting.

One comment about #4 that you touch on
Driving it in the fairway is huge, and not easy due to the hogback fairway.
You must be in the fairway to confidently fire at the green as OB is 3 feet off the putting surface.
It's easy to catch a flyer from the rough and go over (OB)
Once you do it, you never go over again and are almost always short, particularly when approaching from the rough.

I started playing Southampton in the mid 90's when I worked at Atlantic, fell in love with the course and joined shortly after.
The conditioning has improved greatly, particularly around the greens in the fringes.(this effect started before the recent renovation)
I will say the course plays much easier than it used to because of this for the better players.
It will be interesting to see how the new bunkering affects better players.
#17 is definitely more challenging and 16 requires a layup or precise driver down the right side.

That said, it must play much more difficult due to the bunkers for the mid-higher handicappers.

having only played there three times this season, I don't have a whole lot of anecdotal evidence post renovation, but I have had three good rounds there during a season I have not played particularly well elsewhere.

I will also note there are going to be some interesting pin placements once the new green expansions mature.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

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Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2011, 10:01:49 PM »
Patrick

I have actually never played Westhampton and only saw 16 holes of Southampton the redo last November. Thus you are maybe the best qualified to answer:

How would you split 10 rounds between Southampton, Westhampton and Mountain Lake - 3 "quiet" Raynor courses?

Mike,
In January..
10 rounds Mountain Lake

In June,
7 rounds Southampton,3 Westhampton
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2011, 10:10:22 PM »
Patrick

I have actually never played Westhampton and only saw 16 holes of Southampton the redo last November. Thus you are maybe the best qualified to answer:

How would you split 10 rounds between Southampton, Westhampton and Mountain Lake - 3 "quiet" Raynor courses?


Mike,

I really love all three.

Someone asked me that same question about Southampton and Westhampton and I said that I'd split them evenly.

Inserting Mountain Lake complicates things, but, I"m going to go with 4 Westhampton, 3 each the other two.

And my reasoning is that I think Westhampton, hard by the water, gets more wind and I find wind to be the catalyst for great golf.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2011, 10:14:48 PM »
Patrick,
You make a good observation about 13.
It is disorienting.

One comment about #4 that you touch on
Driving it in the fairway is huge, and not easy due to the hogback fairway.
You must be in the fairway to confidently fire at the green as OB is 3 feet off the putting surface.
It's easy to catch a flyer from the rough and go over (OB)
Once you do it, you never go over again and are almost always short, particularly when approaching from the rough.

Jeff,

The frightening aspect about # 4 is that the green sits up on a good sized hill, thus, if you don't reach the green, you roll back down into the valley leaving you a blind recovery.  I did that, and thought i hit a great recovery, only to find that my ball had rolled just out of bounds.

It's a very strong hole, and with the wind, hitting the hogback fairway is a challenge, especially when you know you need all the distance you can get on your tee shot.


I started playing Southampton in the mid 90's when I worked at Atlantic, fell in love with the course and joined shortly after.
The conditioning has improved greatly, particularly around the greens in the fringes.(this effect started before the recent renovation)
I will say the course plays much easier than it used to because of this for the better players.
It will be interesting to see how the new bunkering affects better players.
#17 is definitely more challenging and 16 requires a layup or precise driver down the right side.

That said, it must play much more difficult due to the bunkers for the mid-higher handicappers.

having only played there three times this season, I don't have a whole lot of anecdotal evidence post renovation, but I have had three good rounds there during a season I have not played particularly well elsewhere.

I will also note there are going to be some interesting pin placements once the new green expansions mature.

I think the expanded greens are going to result in some great, really great hole locations, like on back left, over the spine, on # 10.

I love the golf course and don't understand why it doesn't get more attention.


Kevin Pallier

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Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2011, 07:47:07 AM »
Patrick

Have the main works been finished at Southampton ? I recall a thread last year with some pics of the tree clearing and the like but aren't sure if they have been completed and if so how they look now ?

Matt Bosela

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Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2011, 08:24:27 AM »
Patrick,

Compliments to you on a wonderful writeup - I also had the pleasure of playing the restored SGC recently and was similarly impressed. 

It's a completely different golf course after the tree removal, bunker restoration and green expansion project and the results are stunning, to say the least.  I hope to see it again in the next couple of years to see how things look after the grow-in period has passed.

Congratulations to the membership at Southampton on the successful project!

Keith OHalloran

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Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2011, 09:07:22 AM »
Matt,
Come back whenever you want. I promise that we will find a bar that is open later next time!

bstark

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Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2011, 09:50:50 AM »
Pat,

I agree SGC is a MUCH better course since restoration. Trees down on back, Raynor bunkering brought back, greens being squared up and firm and fast coming back too...all good.

The only thing I don't like is new back tee box on # 7...it now plays over 200 yds (with a prevailing cross wind) MUCH too far for a sloping redan green....The original (now middle tee) is about 175 yards or so. Should a redan green play over 200 yds? I believe its too much given green shape and speeds....discuss.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2011, 11:29:51 AM »
Patrick

Have the main works been finished at Southampton ? I recall a thread last year with some pics of the tree clearing and the like but aren't sure if they have been completed and if so how they look now ?


Kevin,

I think the main work is done, but as I looked around, there appeared to be more work that could be done.

They should listen to Gene Greco whom I'm just beginning to forgive for giving Terry McBride a putting lesson.
Terry was putting just fair, but after Gene's lesson he made every 15 and 6 footer he looked at.
Without that lesson I definitely would have advanced.  Thanks Gene  ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2011, 11:42:36 AM »
Pat,

I agree SGC is a MUCH better course since restoration. Trees down on back, Raynor bunkering brought back, greens being squared up and firm and fast coming back too...all good.

The only thing I don't like is new back tee box on # 7...it now plays over 200 yds (with a prevailing cross wind) MUCH too far for a sloping redan green....The original (now middle tee) is about 175 yards or so. Should a redan green play over 200 yds? I believe its too much given green shape and speeds....discuss.
Bstark, 
 I think that's a hi-tech/distance problem that afflicts many par threes, especially the templates.

Examples are the 11th at Westhampton, the short that with wind can play close to 200,
The 18th at GCGC, the eden, that with wind can play more than it's 190

Late Saturday afternoon at Westhampton,  four young guys (20's-30)) joined me the 16th hole .
On the 17th hole, a 210 Biarritz, they hit 5-irons.

So now, let's go back to your question

For those kids, the yardage on # 7 would appear to be right.

Into a little breeze i choked down on a 3-wood and hit itabout 30 feet from a back left hole location.

With the hazard so close to the left, it may be too demanding for us, but for the next generation it seems just about right   

on


jeffwarne

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Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2011, 01:03:03 PM »
Pat,

I agree SGC is a MUCH better course since restoration. Trees down on back, Raynor bunkering brought back, greens being squared up and firm and fast coming back too...all good.

The only thing I don't like is new back tee box on # 7...it now plays over 200 yds (with a prevailing cross wind) MUCH too far for a sloping redan green....The original (now middle tee) is about 175 yards or so. Should a redan green play over 200 yds? I believe its too much given green shape and speeds....discuss.

It would be hard to say 200 yards is "MUCH too far" for a redan given that the original redan is 192 yards to a MUCH more severely sloped green, built (and perhaps modified) at a time prior to ProV1's ;D)

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2011, 02:00:14 PM »
Jeff,

Don't forget that we've had a very wet spring and that many courses didn't have fairway irrigation making the running shot an option, especially on redans were the tee and green are at about the same elevation, like the 7th at Westhampton and the 7th at Southampton.

Macdonald proclaimed that his Eden was superior to the original because running shots couldn't be played, and that the hole was therefore purer due to it's more aerial nature.

The Biarritz at Mountain Lake allows for the running shot as well

Alex Lagowitz

Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2011, 08:55:30 PM »
Pat,

I agree SGC is a MUCH better course since restoration. Trees down on back, Raynor bunkering brought back, greens being squared up and firm and fast coming back too...all good.

The only thing I don't like is new back tee box on # 7...it now plays over 200 yds (with a prevailing cross wind) MUCH too far for a sloping redan green....The original (now middle tee) is about 175 yards or so. Should a redan green play over 200 yds? I believe its too much given green shape and speeds....discuss.
Bstark, 
 I think that's a hi-tech/distance problem that afflicts many par threes, especially the templates.

Examples are the 11th at Westhampton, the short that with wind can play close to 200,
The 18th at GCGC, the eden, that with wind can play more than it's 190

Late Saturday afternoon at Westhampton,  four young guys (20's-30)) joined me the 16th hole .
On the 17th hole, a 210 Biarritz, they hit 5-irons.

So now, let's go back to your question

For those kids, the yardage on # 7 would appear to be right.

Into a little breeze i choked down on a 3-wood and hit itabout 30 feet from a back left hole location.

With the hazard so close to the left, it may be too demanding for us, but for the next generation it seems just about right   

on


At Westhampton's 17th I hit a 6-iron to the back pin location which defeated the purpose of the shot...had it not been a tournament I would have hit a running shot just for the fun of it, but being that score counted I flew it all the way to the hole

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2011, 10:34:56 PM »
Alex,

That's a 250 yard 6-iron to that elevated plateau.

What's your handicap ?

Keith OHalloran

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Re: A great surprise in Southampton
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2011, 07:06:37 PM »
Pat,
What do you think about the placement of the front right bunker on the Redan hole? The Dental Sandbagger, that you were speaking of, and I had a conversation about whether it was too close to the green for such a long shot, especially a shot designed to run a bit. What say you?

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