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Frank M

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Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"? New
« on: June 23, 2011, 12:56:35 PM »
Why is everyone so against "artificial" golf design? It seems that some people believe good golf design = "natural" golf course design, but why can't something completely artificial be just as good?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2024, 05:52:48 PM by Frank M »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Why the hesitance to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2011, 12:59:11 PM »

Its all about feeling

Melvyn

Ian Andrew

Re: Why the hesitance to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2011, 01:21:00 PM »
I'm a huge fan of Raynor's work because of the clear contrast to everything natural around the feature work.
I don't consider the work "naturalistic" (although the tie-ins are magnificent).

I still think "the next big thing" has to contrast with the current movement.
Someone will figure that out at some point. ;D


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hesitance to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2011, 01:21:47 PM »
First thoughts:

I think in golf design, artificiality can be good if the designer sets out with that clear concept in mind. There can be a lot of beauty in straight lines and geometry if they are employed well (See MacDonald / Raynor green hazards)…

Generally the randomness of nature is attractive to the eye though…. Where the aesthetics of golf design fail in my view is where an attempt to mimic nature looks too uniform and consequently more “artificial” than a course that has set out to deliberately challenge in its looks…

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why the hesitance to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011, 01:54:24 PM »
Good art and design is entirely in the eye of the beholder, so I'm not sure there is one answer to you question.  For me, I like the beauty and the relaxing, subtle feeling that natural land gives me.  But if others want something different, that's their right.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Why the hesitance to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2011, 04:42:16 PM »
What is this thread about? It seems the subject and the first post are diametrically opposed.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hesitance to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2011, 04:43:53 PM »
What is this thread about? It seems the subject and the first post are diametrically opposed.


I noticed that too Garland,

I think what he meant to write in the subject line is:

"Why the hesitancy to like anything "artificial"?

Or perhaps even:

"Why the tendancy to dislike anything "artificial"?

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hesitance to dislike anything "artificial"? New
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 05:12:43 PM »
Thanks will change.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2024, 05:53:13 PM by Frank M »

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the tendancy to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2011, 05:43:31 PM »
I do not mind artifical at all. But as with anything else, there is good artifical and bad artifical...and even that is subjective.

I find I like courses that hug the ground, except for the bunkers. For some reason i think it is a very cool looking when you have a low profile green with a pot bunker short of the green with a big lip that sticks out of the ground.
Here are some example. Not the best pic I could find, oh well.
http://img.timeinc.net/golf/i/tours/2011/04/april22-tpc-louisiana_372x344.jpg
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hesitance to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2011, 06:29:35 PM »
What is this thread about? It seems the subject and the first post are diametrically opposed.


I noticed that too Garland,

I think what he meant to write in the subject line is:

"Why the hesitancy to like anything "artificial"?

Or perhaps even:

"Why the tendancy to dislike anything "artificial"?

Absolutely....my mistake.

I will change it.

Thanks for informing me.

As long as you're amenable to changes:

That's tendency.

Tending toward anal-retentiveness,
Dan

P.S. Artificial works for me -- so long as it makes for good golf. Cf., e.g., Lawsonia.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hesitance to dislike anything "artificial"? New
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2011, 06:33:34 PM »
Harsh crowd.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2024, 05:53:49 PM by Frank M »

Anthony Gray

Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2011, 06:40:11 PM »


  Its because its artificial.

  Anthony


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2011, 06:48:34 PM »


  Its because its artificial.

  Anthony


Anthony,

In the context of a golf course, name something that's natural...

Flag sticks
Tee boxes
Cut Greens
Mowed fairways
Bunkers in non-dunesland

They're all artificial relative to whats there via naturally occurring processes.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 06:52:27 PM by Kalen Braley »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2011, 09:19:57 PM »
Frank:

Maybe you will get Tom Paul back on here to talk about the thoughts of Max Behr about the game-mind versus true sport.

I think those of us who really strive to build natural-looking features, are mostly the same guys who remember that golf in its earliest form was truly a natural sport.  The course was not prepared so much for play, and you had to overcome natural obstacles, to which the silly bunkers and contours of modern courses pale in comparison.

There is also a psychological element to it.  The difference in criticism of old courses and new courses, in my observation, is that on older courses golfers never question why a feature is there, whereas on new courses they are always aware that it was "designed" so they always question why it wasn't done differently.  Most architects would prefer that the golfer not think so consciously about that, and instead just try to answer the questions we ask of their game.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2011, 10:24:58 PM »
Frank - for me it's for the same reason that I like touching stone and wood instead of plastic and steel; the same reason I want an open window and a breeze instead of air conditioning; the same reason I want to listen to live music, wind instruments that carry human energy like saxophones and trumpets instead of sitting at a computer with headphones on being inundated by electrical impulses; the same reason that wild flowers growing randomly in bunches and profusions appeal to me more than a formal garden; why I'd rather walk and feel the earth beneath my feet than be in a tube 30,000 feet up attached to nothing at all. Because it feels better, it rings truer, it resonates more deeply, it quenches my humanity more fully, it lifts my spirits up higher, it nourishes my psyche instead of depleting it with artifical signs and signifiers and self promotion. In short, it's what Melvyn said so simply. I know, I know - if the only courses in the world were the original scottish links, millions of golfers would never get a chance to golf, so we 'have to' fake it -- in deserts where there is no grass and with bunkers where there is no sand and with mounds on what used to be a rice field and with golf courses on what used to be garbage. But there is a big difference, it seems to me, between accepting this reality/fact (with, hopefully, good grace and gratitude and a peaceful spirit) and celebrating this reality/fact as if it were something objectively 'good' or something that truly fed our deepest natures.

Yup.

Peter  

PS - Maybe I'm just a tired romantic who has spent too many years working on artificial tasks in artificial buildings with artificial light and air, but all those natural pleasures I just described -- the longing for those experiences -- is what, I predict, will mean that a course like Ballyneal, on which Jim Colton just performed a great human and humane feat, will within our lifetimes be ranked No 1 in the country.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 10:48:21 PM by PPallotta »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2011, 02:19:35 AM »
I am one of those folks who have been won over to artificial looking designs so long as the obviously elements are in my face rather than on the wings.  When done right I find this sort of design much more aesthetically engaging than a design trying desperately to mimic nature, but using tons of sand and cart paths all over the place.  I am willing to call a spade a spade.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"? New
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2011, 06:30:23 AM »
The game of golf is inherently artificial, but I believe the land upon which we play contains natural contours and features which are also inextricably part of our understanding of golf and what a golf course should be.

Tom: Do you think people tend to question modern courses more because of the progression and ability for us to shape the land to a greater extent?

 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2024, 05:54:33 PM by Frank M »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2011, 06:38:33 AM »
Behr might've argued that it's the whims of the day that makes the fleeting artificiality objectionable to the mind's eye. It's a great question, why does the juxtaposition of nature get a pass? but, I believe it's how one does it that matters most. As Ian has intimated`, and stated, the tie ins are what makes it work. i.e. Sleepy Hollow's short.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2011, 11:28:09 AM »
I'm not sure thal atificiality is always disliked. Bayonne GC is as artificial as they come yet is highly regarded, even by many on GCA.  Whistling Straights is artificial as well. Given the sites they are built on, they needed to be constructed that way. I think what many of us dislike are certain kinds of artificialty.  For instance, the eleventh hole at Black Rock in Idaho. The shot into the green is lofted high above an between two grand waterfalls. It is artificial. I happen to like that particular one but many find it too artificial. I played Pikewood National this spring and when we got to one of the holes, there was a grand waterfall behind the green. My host pointed out that the waterfall is natural.

Most of us would like a course to incorporate that natural flow of the land into the routing, but when that is impossible the architect will have to construct something.  It takes a certain kind of genius to pull it off. .
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2011, 12:01:17 PM »
It’s a great thread and a very good premise.

To start with, yes golf courses are truly artificial, other than areas left native in the design.  For most courses, the constructed part is close to 100% of the site, with only patches of undisturbed areas.

Tees must be leveled, and greens and fairways leveled “enough” to fit their function of providing golf surfaces that function under the rules and conventions and maintenance practices of golf.  It is a landscape designed for a very particular human use, and changes to the landscape should be expected.  Most of the “keep it natural” idea seemingly stems from the old notion of sheep huddling for wind protection and then creating bunkers in Scottish dunes.

So, the land changes, but the question is, how much.  Many use the Raynor style as an example.  And, its just that – a style of manufacturing critical golf elements, although, in some cases you could argue that he is trying to return the grade back to nature as quickly as possible, and it might be more natural.  Other Golf Course Architect’s have espoused the philosophy of never more than doubling the natural grade, using more room to catch back up to grade, but looking plausibly natural, while probably the most common thought is to make disturbed slopes the maximum steepness that can be mowed, sort of half way in between the extremes.

To me, the real question isn’t the Raynor style – it’s the style myself and others used in the 1980-2000’s to various degrees to grade other than non essential golf elements – i.e., mounding all the way down the fairway.
It seems to me that there are/were several basic theories in place:

Don’t grade the fairway with artificial contours, like mounds.

Grade only for support of features – like sand bunkers, raising the back edge of fairway for visibility and ball holding capabilities, and sometimes to support vision through the hole, variance in fairway grades to establish strategies, etc.  Included would be backing mounds at the green to provide a visual backstop to the hole.

Grade to place the hole in a visually controlled valley.  Even here there are variances – Fazio uses the long slope, no more than double natural slope mentality, whereas Rees, JN, myself and others at different times experimented with the idea or earthwork as artwork, sacrificing naturalness to create visual excitement and also to provide a visual side stop, if you will, where non was present with trees.

There are some valid reasons for style no. 3 – if you want to separate holes, earthmoving is both cheaper and more immediate than planting lots of trees.  I have also argued that we are more visually engaged than our forbearers’, mostly because of TV,  and “arranging” the landscape into something more visually exciting at the expense of naturalism actually makes some sense for the modern day golfer, even if the tradition from the old days was different.  I also believe that “creating spaces” has a lot of appeal to human nature, even more so than just being out in nature.  Again, as we move off the farm to big cities, we are more used to existing in man made spaces, and perhaps are more comfortable in them, for reasons we cannot explain.

I believe one of the reasons Fazio is so popular is that he combines the need to “arrange the landscape” and “create spaces” with the natural look, accomplished not only with reasonably natural looking contours, but also massive landscape budgets that give his courses almost instant maturity..
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2011, 12:18:55 PM »
Frank,

Many of us play golf in part to get away from the artifice of the world we live in.  Nothing does that better than a very natural course in the middle of nowhere with as few obviously man-made features as possible in view.  I don't go hiking, bird-watching, nature walking, gardening, fishing, jogging or camping...I play golf.

"Study nature, love nature, stay close to nature. It will never fail you." (Frank Lloyd Wright)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 12:24:43 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2011, 01:10:10 PM »

Because it does not normally survive the test of time - with Nature playing her normal waiting game as in the end she always wins. All else is just a cheap imitation of the real thing, so let’s have the REAL THING from the start.

Melvyn



Anthony Gray

Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2011, 05:59:29 PM »


  Its because its artificial.

  Anthony


Anthony,

In the context of a golf course, name something that's natural...

Flag sticks
Tee boxes
Cut Greens
Mowed fairways
Bunkers in non-dunesland

They're all artificial relative to whats there via naturally occurring processes.



  Cruden Bay


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2011, 06:08:28 PM »
What is intersting in a philosophical way is that golf considered bunkers to be an integral element of golf.  And, when golf started moving around the globe, I wonder if anyone truly postulated that other non sandy areas ought to have no bunkers because its natural.

In other words, we still seek in many ways to emulate nature, but felt it was necessary to emulate Scotlands nature, not other localities.  For that matter, most of America chose to emulate English Country Estates, and their lawns and scattered trees for suburban america and parks.

Sure, part of that is practical.  Golf does need greens that putt "right" (i.e. reasonable chance of 2 putting with good strokes) and tees (level, although that is by custom, and not the specific rules) and so forth.  Bunkers and hazards are also part of the soul of golf, and were transplanted as well, even though you could make a case they didn't need to be.

Then, they had enough staying power to withstand design changes, maintenance changes, and evolved as did most of architecture to a more stylized version of nature, perhaps as part of the same American culture that has generally sought to tame the landscape, where others didn't.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bill_McBride

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Re: Why the tendency to dislike anything "artificial"?
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2011, 07:26:08 PM »
I think it's the DEGREE of artificiality that is key to like or dislike.  We know that there's been grading and drainage and construction of features, we just want the good doctor's advice followed:  make it look natural!