Play It Forward

[Matthew Petersen]

I'm calling bullshit here. Can either Lou or Jim show me the numbers that they shoot disproportionate numbers from the up tees after establishing their handicaps from the tips? I know Lou has volumes of data; come on; show me the numbers!

Well on my home course the tips are 74.1/134, rated at just under 7100 yards (they've moved a few tees back since then and more trees have been added/grown, the new number will probably be close to 75) and the senior tees are 66.0/118, rated at around 5800 yards.  I usually play the tips, but a few times instead of play back I've moved up and played the senior tees with my dad and his friends.  Considering the slope difference, even with my 6 or so index my course handicap between the two sets is about 9 (10 once its re-rated) strokes.

There's no way I'd average anywhere near 9 strokes less playing up.  I'd be lucky to get half that many.  My best from the tips is 74, not in my wildest dreams could I ever shoot 65 playing it up!  The course still penalizes missing the fairway heavily due to all the trees, and the tee shot is more often more difficult from the senior tees than it is easier.  Oh sure, I could hit an iron off the tee, but even assuming I managed to hit ALL the fairways that way, I still gotta produce on the second shot (and I'm reminded of the discussion Shivas and I had a few years ago about taking guys like us and dropping a ball at the 150 marker and seeing if we can get down in level 3s for a whole round...)  Not to mention I'm giving up my big advantage on the par 5s this way.

Most importantly of all, it'd be boring as hell to play that way!

This is why you need to know your own game when picking your tee. There's no two golfers with the same game and the way handicap and slop/rating interact ... there's no real consistency.

I'm a lot like you. I'm a 1-2 HCP, established mostly from playing the tips at whatever course I'm playing. I drive the ball well, hit mediocre irons, have a good chipping game, but putt very poorly. So a long difficult course with a 75 rating is one where I can pretty reliably shoot in the mid-70s. I'll make a birdie here and there and a couple bogies ... voila.

But move me up to 6500 yards, even on a relatively trouble-free course ... and I'll still be shooting 72. I just don't make birdies, on account of the weaknesses in my game being irons and putting.

[Jason Topp]

I'm in favor of freedom for anyone to play from wherever they want to do so. 

I know of one club that plays a black/gold event which consists of 18 holes from the back tees with tough pins followed by 18 holes from the forward tees with easy pins.  Such an event might be a good way to demonstate the fun of playing forward tees.

[Jud_T]

I know of one club that plays a black/gold event which consists of 18 holes from the back tees with tough pins followed by 18 holes from the forward tees with easy pins.  Such an event might be a good way to demonstate the fun of playing forward tees.

Jason,

I really like this idea.  Most guys rarely play up more than 1 box, and don't realize how fun it can be for an occasional fun/quick round, and those who really should be playing up on a regular basis might have a lightbulb moment.

[Richard Choi]

Interesting data point.

I just played Mauna Kea the other day, and since I was sent out by myself, I played from the tips. I believe the tips is measured at 7350 or so, but the black tees were moved up on a few tee boxes so I figure it was more like 7200.

I am a 11 handicap, so by Play it Forward logic, I had no business back there. But the balls were flying at least a club or more in the hot humid air, and it felt shorter than 6600 or so I usually play back home. The only place I felt the course was playing long was par 3's which were almost all over 200 yards.

I ended up shooting 89, which would have been low 80's or high 70's if I had any short game (see yips thread). I doubt I would have shot much lower if I played from 6000 yards. What was really interesting was my diff for that round is 9.7 and I don't feel like I played that well.

Unlike Lou (who has a great short game), if I want to keep my handicap higher, I need to play more forward tees so that my awful short game has more effect.

[Bryan Izatt]

I understand what the USGA is trying to do here, but I just don't buy it.  Someone who is actually averaging 275 yards from the tee playing 6500 yards or less?  That would be very boring, in my opinion.  The biggest problem is people who think they average 225 (or 275) but really hit it 225 on their best ones 2 or 3 times a round and even those only carry probably 200 yards.  These are the guys that end up not being able to carry hazards or reach fairways and slow down play.

I've developed my own little system to determine if I played the right tees.  I split my bag into: hybrid or more; 3-5 iron; 6-9 iron; PW or less.  I count how many times I had each category into the green in a round.  I never like to see the hybrid or more category above 4, and the final two categories should always total at least 12.  If that is the case I think I picked the right set of tees and would play those tees again if I returned.

Just for fun, I looked at the scorecards of a couple of courses I play regularly.  I used the 6500 yard tees and presumed an average of a 275 yard drive and 150 yard 8 iron.  The breakdown would look like this (of course it assumes driver off every tee, which may not be the play):

National Pines, 6602 Yards

Hybrid or more: 0
3-5 iron: 1
6-9 iron: 10
PW or less: 7

King's Riding: 6502 Yards


Hybrid or more: 1
3-5 iron: 1
6-9 iron: 9
PW or less: 7

Mark,

Jim has misreported the recommended course length for players who drive it 275 yards.  The recommended length is 6700 - 6900 yards, not 6500 yards.  See here for the table http://www.playgolfamerica.com/index.cfm?action=teeitforward

At National Pines you should be doing your math somewhere closer to the back tees.  Of course, Kings Riding doesn't go any further back than 6,500 yards so it's not a good case in point. I assume you are a Clublink member, so you could try it out on Bond Head South instead.

Your approach looks a little flawed to me since it assumes that you will always use driver and always hit it 275.  That ignores weather, conditioning and most importantly architecture which all influence or impact how far the drives and subsequent shots go.  At National Pines, do you always use driver on 3 and 4?  

Using your math, I assume you are always hitting short irons into par 5's.  Unless the par 4's are super long - say more than 455 yards, I assume you'd never use a 3 to 5 iron or hybrid or more.  Which leaves par 3's as the only holes where you'd likely hit long iron or hybrid or more into a green.  So, if you want a 6700 - 6900 yard course that gives you shots into greens that are more evenly distributed over your categories, you're going to have to find ones that have a set of long par 3's and  and a few super long par 4's.  Does National Pines from 6800 yards do that for you? Or Bond Head from similar yardage?

My issue with the recommended yardages is that there are no regulation courses that my wife and I can play that have tees at the recommended lengths based on the distances my wife hits the ball.    For me, hitting it a little shy of 250, the recommended yardage of 6200 - 6400 works just fine.



  

[Sean_A]

Part of the problem with the this concept and I am sensing back tee players feel it, is many courses are designed for the back tees.  I suggest that many of you ball breakers playing a well designed course for 6500 or 6200 would often struggle to match your handicap.  I watched some of these guys at various Budas and very few threaten their handicaps despite playing courses that are sometimes upwards of 1000 yards shorter than they are used to.  This is all a matter of designing to a yardage as I have long believed that building a good course across many different tee lengths is virtually impossible without using an incredible amount of hazards which would look hell.

Ciao

[Adam Clayman]

Jason Topp. I really like your first line. And in agreement. The campaign should be "play it considerately". That way people have their freedom but we get divots and ball mark repairs, plus pace of play in there. 

[Cliff Hamm]

Why is it necessary to play one set of tees?  There is a course I frequent where I play from around 6500 yards except for 4 holes.  One is a par 4 where one must carry a trap and from the 6500 tees I can't do it.  Two are par 4's I can't reach and the last is a par 3 of 205 yards to a small target.  The course is the most fun if I play forward, but only for those 4 holes.  Other than handicap why don't more golfers pick the tee based on the hole?

[Jud_T]

Other than handicap why don't more golfers pick the tee based on the hole?

Cliff,

You just answered your own question.

[Cliff Hamm]

Shouldn't the enjoyment of the game trump, no pun intended, handicap?  It is also possible to approximate the handicap and slope altho I realize this is not technically acceptable. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Cliff,

Although stats show that most golfers don't keep a handicap, etc. and are only prevented from moving around tees by custom, some golfers enjoy the game mostly via competition and/or gambling and an accurate handicap and by extension, slope rating, is essential to them.

I think one of the direct factors is courses that set up tees up and pins back so the hole plays to its rated distance.  As a non competitive, non gambling golfer, I would actually prefer my daily course to be set up so a hole never quite plays the same yardage for variety, but who cares about me when there are gamblers to satisfy?

[Ken Moum]

Shouldn't the enjoyment of the game trump, no pun intended, handicap?  It is also possible to approximate the handicap and slope altho I realize this is not technically acceptable. 

Sorry, but that excuse doesn't hold up.... See Section 5-2g here: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/

The basics are in this chart

[Cliff Hamm]

Makes the case even stronger.  Play the tees that maximize the fun factor, options, etc. for your game and disregard always playing the blues, whites, etc.

[John Kirk]

Lastly, the primary reason golf is in "poor economic shape" is the political takeover of economics.

I'm curious why you think this is so.  I realize I am potentially opening a can of worms.

If you had asked me, the first cause for the "golf recession" would be the true economic condition of our country, one that consumes a whole lot more than it produces.  Add in the real estate bubble, induced by artificially low interest rates, together with opportunistic investment banks unhindered by any sort of derivative regulation.  "You too can own your own golf development!"

While I agree that world economics are now deeply political, I believe the national economic situation is so badly damaged that politics and government are the only stopgap measure available.  Without political intervention, depression is inevitable.

Therefore, I predict that the golf business is in for rough times.  Golf participation will drop over the next 25 years, unless the lower middle class can play for cheap.  Newer golf clubs designed for the wealthy will experience painful financial reorganization(s) as they develop a sustainable business model.  This high-falutin' golf lifestyle some of us enjoy, traveling to the best places a few times each year, will become relatively more expensive to maintain.

Sorry to be a downer.  Would be curious to hear your thoughts.


Jim Hoak,

With respect to your initial theory, I tend to disagree.  I am a 0-3 handicapper over the last five years, more accurate than long.  My carry distance for a solid drive is in the 225-240 yard range.  A typical 6500 yard course yields a whole lot of short iron approaches, unless it is cleverly designed, like Pasatiempo or Crystal Downs.  I just played Ballyneal last week from 7100 yards, and enjoy that distance best, as it offers me the most interesting approach shots, and compels me to drive the ball well.

Of course, Ballyneal is well designed to play fairway woods or long irons into the long holes.  Many courses are less well designed for the long approach; which tees work best depends on the venue.

My handicap holds up well unless the course is either too short (psychological barriers prevent low scores) or too long.  Although this is purely anecdotal, I see a non-linear break, different for each player, based on his skill and strength level.  If I move from the 6500 yard tees to the 7000 yard tees at Pumpkin Ridge - Witch Hollow, my index would jump one to two points, though in this case, the limiting factor is mainly my inability to drive the ball accurately rather than powerfully.  But other friends can't handle the course if they move from 6100 to 6500, or 5500 to 6000 and so on.

[Tom_Doak]

When I worked for Mr. Dye, he said most amateurs should play from 6000 yards or less, so they could hit the same 8-irons and wedges into the greens that the pros did.

I said I preferred a course that made me hit 4-irons and woods into a few of the greens, and would like to see the pros hit some of those shots occasionally.  He laughed and said he would, too, but we'd have to have 520-yard par-4's to get them to do that.  But, he also said that Tour pros are just as uncomfortable with 4-iron and fairway-wood approach shots as the amateurs are, because they never have to face them.

Today, it's 580-600 yards.

[Mike Tanner]

I attempted to Play It Forward this week, hitting from the white tees (67.4/126 and 5,640 yards) instead of the blue tees 70.9/129 and 6,326 yards) on a par-71 course.

 After the seventh hole, I abandoned the experiment and moved back to the blues. Mostly, it had to do with maintaining conversation with my host, who was in a separate cart with his non-playing father and playing from the blues. Also, I wasn't seeing much improvement in my ability to hit greens.

I hit three out of five fairways from the whites and seven out of nine from the blues, but only two greens in regulation, one each from both sets of tees. So maybe I just need to work on my approach shots.

 Pace of play didn't seem to be any faster when I was playing from the whites, even though I made a conscious effort to position myself so I could get out and hit without delay when it was my turn. I did get more of an appreciation for what ladies have to do in mixed team scrambles, so maybe that wasn't all bad.

I'll probably try playing it forward again in the future, but I'll definitely make sure that the entire group plays from the same set off tees.

    

[Ken Moum]

I'll probably try playing it forward again in the future, but I'll definitely make sure that the entire group plays from the same set off tees.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why so many guys have that attitude.  I play about three fourths of my golf with my wife, who obviously plays the forward tees. Some times that's one in front of mine, some times it two.

I also play a with a group of guys who mostly play from the same tees, and I see no difference in the interaction, sociability, or enjoyment of the game.  I suppose that might be because I play golf to PLAY GOLF, not spend all my time hanging out of the tee BSing... or am I misreading your comments about how playing forward ruined your interaction?

Lately, some of the guys I play with started moving up one tee, and they are enjoying the game a hell of a lot more than they used to.  And, like playing with my wife, I see no change in our social interaction.

Many time while on vacation, I have played with my wife and a couple strangers, and we often end up playing from three different sets of tees--once we played from four different sets.  Again, the game was enjoyable, sociable, and fun.

K

[Peter Pallotta]

My mantra, that of an average and infrequent player: "so many ways to make bogie or worse, so few ways to make par".  I find the mantra holds (equally) true whether I play the blues or the whites -- I find no difference in my average score, or pattern of scores, between one set of tees and the other....except on the rare occasions when I play a course with a very high slope rating. Not surprising I don't think - the defining characteristic of an average golfer is inconsistency.  I'm just as likely (or not) to hit a good solid drive from the blues as from the whites; and, when I don't, just as rarely will really strike a 4 iron well as I will a 5 iron.  In fact, playing blues sometimes means better scores, since in 'not playing the proper set of tees for my game' I tend to end up short of all the trouble/bunkers in the landing zone. I feel sorry for architects trying to figure out how average players (and head cases) like me will likely play a hole -- especially since every one of us is inconsistent at different times and different places!  And then we'll turn around and have the temerity to complain about the architecture!!


Peter

[Mike Tanner]

or am I misreading your comments about how playing forward ruined your interaction?

Ken,
Definitely misreading. Conversation with the other people in my group is important to me, but not at the expense of maintaining pace of play. I don't  hang around the tee, or the f'way or the green BSing.

I prefer to walk, but my host doesn't walk, so when in Rome...