News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Play It Forward
« on: June 22, 2011, 01:29:34 PM »
I really like the USGA's new campaign, "Play It Forward."  It is designed to get golfers to move up on tees, so as to make golf more fun (and thereby increase the number of golfers) and to make rounds of golf faster.  It will also help decrease the pressure on golf course design lengths--and maintenance and cost.
We have discussed this topic before on here, and I know that everyone doesn't agree with me--but I think this is critical to the future of golf.  It says that someone who hits his drives 225 yards (as I honestly--not in my dreams--do) needs to play a 5800-6000 yard course.  Some of you who regularly hit it 275 still need to not exceed 6500 yard tees. 
Forget your macho instincts.  These decreased distances will let you play the courses at the same constructive distances as the PGA pros do.  For most of us, add 1400 yards to the course length you are playing, and that is what the touring pros would need to play to be equivalent.  Stated differently, when they are playing at 7600 yards, that is equivalent to most of us playing at 6200 yards.  You may find golf to be more fun when you play it forward.
One of the stupidest things I hear regularly is for golfers to say they want to play the back tees "to see the whole course."
In my opinion, course length is the answer to the topic raised elsewhere on this site for what is wrong with golf in this country.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2011, 08:05:22 AM »
I hope a lot of courses try this, and I have recommended it to all my clients if I have the chance.

We even have to recall that at 7600 yards, half the field has no chance of winning, so maybe, we should base the 1400 yards off of something like 7250.  I really believe most golfers would stay at shorter yardages once they tried them, and golf would be a lot more fun.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2011, 08:08:41 AM »
Eddie's written a very funny song that might help this cause. Anybody know who he could pitch it to?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2011, 08:50:28 AM »
I think this is a good idea...at least for people like me.  6,200 yards is very fun for me and I try not to go over 6,500 yards.  I've found that 6,700 yards is where I begin to get out of my league and the game becomes more of a grind than fun.  FYI...My game looks like this...230 to 250 drives in Atlanta climate, 110 yard pitching wedge, 8.5 index. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011, 09:12:43 AM »

To speed up the game make players run to and from their carts, that will get more walking and speed up the play, well as long as they can judge distances with their eyes that is – otherwise why bother, etiquette failing, because of lack of commitment and consideration

AS for play it forward, those full of their own testosterone will just ignore it, if they have not already considers others, then do not expect them to start. Problem of course is that golf is not about testosterone but actively navigating a course set to challenge a golfer, like a game of chess on a natural board, but perhaps that’s just too much for some to mix testosterone and thinking at the same time.

Melvyn


Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2011, 09:14:52 AM »
like a game of chess on a natural board

Melvyn...I like it!! 

However, I always sucked at chess.  Huh?  Come to think of it, I suck at golf as well!!!   :)

But why do I like both so much?  Hmmm...
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2011, 09:29:04 AM »

Because they make players think  ;)

Use charts etc. for distance and the little grey cell are in standby mode. Ride you don't tend to think yet walking you do. So Golf is a thinking man’s game but ride and use aids proves you use you main asset sparingly, perhaps scared of getting a blue screen. Its terrible when you can trust your own senses relying on cart to walk for you distance aids to judge your distances, where is the fun in all that guys – perhaps it in the Viagra you take when you get home – another little helper for the fully stressed modern player.

Melvyn
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 09:32:56 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

michael damico

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 09:51:28 AM »
yea, I heard Mike Davis last week sound like he's fresh off of reading Bury Me in a Pot Bunker, or any of Alice Dye's numerous articles of forward teeing grounds.

Definitely a good thing though...
"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2011, 11:22:23 AM »
I understand what the USGA is trying to do here, but I just don't buy it.  Someone who is actually averaging 275 yards from the tee playing 6500 yards or less?  That would be very boring, in my opinion.  The biggest problem is people who think they average 225 (or 275) but really hit it 225 on their best ones 2 or 3 times a round and even those only carry probably 200 yards.  These are the guys that end up not being able to carry hazards or reach fairways and slow down play.

I've developed my own little system to determine if I played the right tees.  I split my bag into: hybrid or more; 3-5 iron; 6-9 iron; PW or less.  I count how many times I had each category into the green in a round.  I never like to see the hybrid or more category above 4, and the final two categories should always total at least 12.  If that is the case I think I picked the right set of tees and would play those tees again if I returned.

Just for fun, I looked at the scorecards of a couple of courses I play regularly.  I used the 6500 yard tees and presumed an average of a 275 yard drive and 150 yard 8 iron.  The breakdown would look like this (of course it assumes driver off every tee, which may not be the play):

National Pines, 6602 Yards

Hybrid or more: 0
3-5 iron: 1
6-9 iron: 10
PW or less: 7

King's Riding: 6502 Yards


Hybrid or more: 1
3-5 iron: 1
6-9 iron: 9
PW or less: 7
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 11:24:02 AM by Mark Saltzman »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2011, 12:20:48 PM »
One of the stupidest things I hear regularly is for golfers to say they want to play the back tees "to see the whole course."
In my opinion, course length is the answer to the topic raised elsewhere on this site for what is wrong with golf in this country.

Call me stupid, but I'd rather play toward the back than the front despite my drives only going 220-240Y (vs. 275-300 for much of my adult life).  I invariably prefer seeing 'the whole course' and derive much greater satisfaction from shooting 85 off 6800-7000 yards than breaking 80 from 6000-6200.  BTW, I've been fighting this battle most of my life at every club I've been involved with- the desire by many to play a shorter, easier course is hardly new- because those who like short courses typically resist playing different sets of tees within the group.

Four reasons in favor of playing toward the back come quickly to mind.  1) many of the hazards guarding the landing zones for the longer hitters are typically out of reach for us distance-impaired.  2) the course rating differential between the back and front tees are often unrealistically low; i.e. in competition, those who play the front tees and establish a handicap from there are at a disadvantage vis-a-vis the golfers who set theirs off the back markers.  3) it's been my experience that the level of play eventually adjusts to the set of tees played- one who shoots 80 from the back may enjoy some low rounds in the 70s from the more forward tees for a short while, but then reverts back to the 80 player he was before.  4)  it allows for comparability over long periods of time, though I suspect most of us would prefer thinking of ourselves as the stud golfers we thought we once were.

Three other reasons: 5) hitting long irons and woods off the fairway is more reflective of how golf was played before the distance explosion- the 6700-7000 yard golf course is not a post 1970 invention.  6) particularly for non-residential courses that have not been greatly lengthened, the continuity of the routing (shorter distances from green to tee) by not having to walk forward 30+ yards is more desirable.  7)  90%+ of the courses I play are already set up much shorter than the distances on the card, probably to make them easier and speed up play.  I can't remember the last time I played the tips.

BTW, the stated yardage of the courses I've played this year average under 6700 yards, and I would guess it is closer to 6500.   I suspect that we are already playing very short courses nearly every time.

Lastly, the primary reason golf is in the shit is the political takeover of economics.  I can't remember the last time I heard any one complain that they don't play because the courses are too damn long.  Most courses have three to four sets of tees and I don't see many golfers going to the backs (which are often set up closer to the 2nd set).  Cost of additional real estate and maintenance for 7000 yard courses are relatively minor factors. 

Most people I talk to do complain about cost, though in many parts of the country golf is a relative bargain, and the time it takes to play.  As one who has played in a number of GCA.com related outings often on shortish courses, it ain't the length of the course which typically causes slow play.


JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2011, 12:40:15 PM »
Lou,you typed just about exactly what I was thinking--and better than I could.

I don't think you gave enough weight to #'s 2 and 4,however.

Trying to equalize groups whose handicaps are based from different sets of markers is a fool's errand.As example,at my place,400 yards of golf course(back tees to middle tees) equals 1 shot of handicap.

You're the first person I've ever "met" who agreed with me about playing the same set of markers over the years is a great way to see how your game has deteriorated.Technological improvements in I and B don't make up for increased age (but they do help).

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2011, 12:46:37 PM »

Playing the short Tees is a way to hone ones skills but the problem today is that players are not patient enough and want instance rewards. Yet the rewards from these shorter plays can be far longer lasting than some might expect and quite frankly enjoyable particular if you are trying to hold back your shots.

There is no reason apart from vanity why an average to poor golfer would play from the Pro Tees, quite frankly what’s the point, it’s like your grandmother buying a Ferrari but scared to control the car if she selected second gear or higher.  She like the golfer is just a danger to others not to mention themselves. 

If only we would understand and learn the course Etiquette many of these problems may not even see the light of day and courtesy including faster play could well be the result. It’s a game, so play the F&@k”*g Game and we might find our new courses being more natural, affordable and not forgetting challenging.

Melvyn


Steve Wilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2011, 01:00:30 PM »
At some point in my voluminous but hopelessly disorganized consumption of reading material, I ran across a story concerning Henry Cotton's approach to the problem of diminishing distance.  He hit drives but then dropped a ball on the fairway at a point where he could reach the green with an approach shot.  For Cotton the fun in golf was in "putting for birdies."  Obviously Cotton resorted to this stratagem long after his competiitive career.

Back when I was a single digit capper (longer ago than I care to admit or contemplate), I was still short off the tee but relatively long with my irons.  During those all too few years, I rarely hit a wood and often took them out of the bag to avoid the temptation which inevitably ended with two or three high right drives that ballooned my score.  Consequently, I consistently played a longer course than the card indicated.  The primary advantage of this approach was that I was unable to reach many hazards off the tee.  By relying on what was then a tidy short game and good putting I controlled my scores.  As my distance and the quality of my ball striking continue to wane, I think I may try playing it forward.  I may not limit myself to selecting forward tees, I may go so far as to advance to a point from which I can challenge and be challenged by the hazards.  I think that's an approach I can cotton to.
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2011, 01:43:47 PM »
Lou--I agree with you that the handicap system does not do enough to reflect the true differences between shorter and longer tees.  It  certainly is more than the 1-2 shots that the course rating allows.  Why is that?  Does someone who understands course ratings know why that is and what can be done to change it?
Some of the best club tournament players I know are those that establish their handicaps from back tees, and then play forward in club tournaments.  They kill it with their only slightly lowered handicaps.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2011, 01:54:43 PM »
I'm calling bullshit here. Can either Lou or Jim show me the numbers that they shoot disproportionate numbers from the up tees after establishing their handicaps from the tips? I know Lou has volumes of data; come on; show me the numbers!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2011, 02:49:28 PM »

I'm calling bullshit here. Can either Lou or Jim show me the numbers that they shoot disproportionate numbers from the up tees after establishing their handicaps from the tips? I know Lou has volumes of data; come on; show me the numbers!


Neither Lou nor Jim and I have nothing but a 1 course sample.But,at my place,moving from a set of tees at ~ 7100 yards to a set at ~ 6700 yards requires me to make a 1 shot adjustment to my handicap.Actually it's only 0.9.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2011, 04:19:02 PM »
I wrote a piece on it one day at the Open and got Dan Hicks, Butch Harmon and Ben Crane to talk about slow play.

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=3639
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Brent Hutto

Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2011, 04:22:48 PM »
For Cotton the fun in golf was in "putting for birdies."

Yes it is. Or at least "chipping for birdies". I find that "chipping for bogey" is decidedly un-fun if not entirely un-golf-like.

Par may be just a number but when I go five or six holes in a row without a single makable-length putt for par I'd just as soon be home watching TV.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2011, 04:30:26 PM »
I recently played a 100-hole charity tournament at a Nicklaus course which stretches to 7500 yards. A few holes were improved by the shorter teeing distances we used, but the vast majority of the forward tees allowed us to drive within 80 yards of the greens. That grows wearisome.

Combination tees are more my speed. Three sets of tee boxes allow for a vast number of permutations over the course of 18 holes.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Carl Rogers

Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2011, 04:38:23 PM »
I agree with the play it forward .... mostly.

As stated on a number of other threads in the past, there many ways for various golfers to have the same handicap.  The longer hitter, erratic type may not get much advantage by the 'play it forward'.  The consistent accurate, but short player probably may gain significant advantage.  

I do not know how to equalize.

Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2011, 04:41:25 PM »
Am I the only one here would would be moved Back a set of tees by Play it Forward?

Eric Strulowitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2011, 05:56:56 PM »
I really like the USGA's new campaign, "Play It Forward."  It is designed to get golfers to move up on tees, so as to make golf more fun (and thereby increase the number of golfers) and to make rounds of golf faster.  It will also help decrease the pressure on golf course design lengths--and maintenance and cost.
We have discussed this topic before on here, and I know that everyone doesn't agree with me--but I think this is critical to the future of golf.  It says that someone who hits his drives 225 yards (as I honestly--not in my dreams--do) needs to play a 5800-6000 yard course.  Some of you who regularly hit it 275 still need to not exceed 6500 yard tees. 
Forget your macho instincts.  These decreased distances will let you play the courses at the same constructive distances as the PGA pros do.  For most of us, add 1400 yards to the course length you are playing, and that is what the touring pros would need to play to be equivalent.  Stated differently, when they are playing at 7600 yards, that is equivalent to most of us playing at 6200 yards.  You may find golf to be more fun when you play it forward.
One of the stupidest things I hear regularly is for golfers to say they want to play the back tees "to see the whole course."
In my opinion, course length is the answer to the topic raised elsewhere on this site for what is wrong with golf in this country.

Jim, you are right on.  Playing the back tees to "see the whole course" is up there with a 25 handicapper playing blades because he wants to "work the ball" or a newbie playing Pro V's because he wants "spin on the greens".   Gosh, don't we sound so dumb sometimes!

A few days ago I played at my club with an older gentlemen, I decided to join him on the forward tees which were just over 5600 yards.  I had a blast.  What a difference to have so many legitimate par and birdie opportunities. I concluded that this is the way game really should be played, when I am at 6500+ yards, it really becomes work sometimes.  Playing tommorow again with this gentleman, and it will be forward tees again and can't wait.

"Macho instincts" as you say are a big reason for slow play and new players getting so discouraged with the game.  "Play it forward", I love the idea, but doubt it will catch on.  Great post!

Eric Strulowitz

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2011, 06:23:22 PM »
I'm calling bullshit here. Can either Lou or Jim show me the numbers that they shoot disproportionate numbers from the up tees after establishing their handicaps from the tips? I know Lou has volumes of data; come on; show me the numbers!

Mild mannered Pete Lavallee challenging me?  What balls!

I'll turn over my Lotus and Excel worksheets to you if you'd like to do the analyis, but my comments are borne of considerable experience and that of my opponents at Great Southwest Golf Club when my handicap took me from the championship flight (played from the back tees) to the first (played from the second set) and the whining began.  You'd think it was a Calcutta and I was an unknown 15 who in secret played scratch.  And all we were competing for was a cheap plaque and a few bucks in the pro shop!

BTW, I have no issues with those who want to play the courses from the shorter tees.  However, I do with those that demand that the rest of us do the same.  Oh, BTW2, I play with Hogan Apex blades.  Back tees, and blades.  Right wing too.  What a weirdo!   

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2011, 06:55:00 PM »
Lou, no one is demanding.  This is just an educational tool. A generalized suggestion. One size does not fit all nor do I think anyone is suggesting it should.






Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play It Forward
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2011, 03:23:26 AM »
I'm calling bullshit here. Can either Lou or Jim show me the numbers that they shoot disproportionate numbers from the up tees after establishing their handicaps from the tips? I know Lou has volumes of data; come on; show me the numbers!


Well on my home course the tips are 74.1/134, rated at just under 7100 yards (they've moved a few tees back since then and more trees have been added/grown, the new number will probably be close to 75) and the senior tees are 66.0/118, rated at around 5800 yards.  I usually play the tips, but a few times instead of play back I've moved up and played the senior tees with my dad and his friends.  Considering the slope difference, even with my 6 or so index my course handicap between the two sets is about 9 (10 once its re-rated) strokes.

There's no way I'd average anywhere near 9 strokes less playing up.  I'd be lucky to get half that many.  My best from the tips is 74, not in my wildest dreams could I ever shoot 65 playing it up!  The course still penalizes missing the fairway heavily due to all the trees, and the tee shot is more often more difficult from the senior tees than it is easier.  Oh sure, I could hit an iron off the tee, but even assuming I managed to hit ALL the fairways that way, I still gotta produce on the second shot (and I'm reminded of the discussion Shivas and I had a few years ago about taking guys like us and dropping a ball at the 150 marker and seeing if we can get down in level 3s for a whole round...)  Not to mention I'm giving up my big advantage on the par 5s this way.

Most importantly of all, it'd be boring as hell to play that way!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 03:25:06 AM by Doug Siebert »
My hovercraft is full of eels.