How Many Courses Have You Played?

[Rih Goodale]

Great stuff, Evan and Jim

While nobody would ever accuse Troon Portland of being an Open course, it is very good and lots of fun, and if you become even more adventurous you could even cross the road from the Portland and play Troon Lochgreen Muni where the great Nicklaus once shot 82 in trying to qualify to play on the posh course across the street........

[Mark_Fine]

Gib,
Now I understand better what you are saying.  Trust me, I can relate as many times people come into town here and they just want to play Saucon instead of Lehigh because they never heard of Lehigh!  However, if they have access how can you blame them.  

But also remember, these lists are formed by raters (which you are one) so aren't you as much to blame as anyone?  The reasons these courses show up on the lists is because people like you went out, played them, liked them, and put them there!  Pacific Dunes is on the list because raters put it on there.  Should golfers pass on playing that one?  Should they pass on Bandon Dunes while they are there?  The same goes for all the others!  

So many courses, so little time!  

To me, whether you say a golfer "collect" courses or not, the true test is did they have fun while they were doing it!  That's what really matters!  Remembering details of them a year later is just a memory test, some of us are good at it, some aren't.  It's not necessarily a function or indication of how good the golf course was!  

I've played The Portland Course at Troon to check it out, but I get over that way a lot.  However, if I'm your average golfer spending a small fortune to make the pilgrimage to Scotland and have time for only two rounds in that area,  99% are going to play The Old Course and skip over to play Prestwick or something more famous.  Sorry but that's reality.  

Those hidden gems you talk about will eventually get discovered, show up on someone's list or get passed along by word of mouth and the golfers will come!  

I expect that will happen very shortly to one of the hidden gems in this area  
Mark

[Paul Turner]

I have to admit being a bit of golf snob for not opting to play at Troon because the second 18 had to be on the Portland course.  I played 36 at W. Gailes instead.  

Looks like I might have missed out on something.  Is the course a true links?  Rich's comment suggests it's in fields.  

Better than Barassie, Prestwick St Nicholas or Glasgow Gailes?

I remember Mackenzie liked the course in his Spirit of St Andrew's book.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Paul

1.  It is linksland.  Someone else on this site referred to the land outside of the Old Course at Troon as "fields."

2.  I think McK claimed to have sort of designed the Portland, hence his promotion of it.  Scholars out there--am I wrong?

3.  As good as Portland is, 36 on Western Gailes will always be better than 36 on Troon, no matter which 36 you play.  However, if you get back there in a kinder, gentler time, give the Portland a shot.

Cheers

Rich

[Paul Turner]

Rich

Have you played the other three courses I've listed?  If you have, what are they like?  The couple of photos I've seen of Prestwick St Nick look really good and Barassie has some good reports too.  I think I remember seeing a bit of Glasgow Gailes, if it's that course right next to Western Gailes (flattish and heathery)?

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Paul

Of the 3 I've only played Glasgow Gailes, and I think it is OK in a Scottish sense (i.e. "let's get on the plane and play that sucker" in a Silicon Valley sense).  About the same as Troon Portland.  From what I have been told about the others, Barassie is maybe a step above and P St. Nicolas a step below. Next time you are in Dornoch, ask the Greenkeeper, Bob McKay, who did the same job at PSt.,N for a number of years.

Cheers

Rich

[Paul Richards]

At last count:

410 courses in the US
in 30 different states.

67 more foreign course
in 8 foreign countries.

 

[Paul Richards]

Golf Magazine's 1999 "World's Greatest Courses List"
59 courses

 
Golf Digest 1995-1996 "America's Greatest Course List"
66 courses

 

and counting!!

[Mark_Fine]

Rich,
Aren't you overstating the Portland course just a bit.  I remember having fun playing it but I can have fun playing most anywhere especially on a links course of most any stature!  I don't recall any design features that would make someone put it on their must play list if on the west coast of Scotland.  If you're a local that's one thing but if you're traveling a great distance and have limited time to play, that one doesn't make the grade compared to the other options at hand!

I'm anxious to hear Gib's response as well!
Mark

[THuckaby2]

I knew the mention of Troon Portland would bring out Evan's story!  

But come on Evan - be honest - would you have played there if it wasn't part of the deal.. that is, if you could have played the Old again, wouldn't you have done that?

I know you had a great day there, but....

I'm with Mark Fine.  I don't feel like I missed anything NOT playing the Portland.  And heck yeah, twice at Western Gailes is better than ANY combination Troon as to offer.

We've been down this road before.  I am no fan of Sr. Monty's domain.

TH

[Evan Fleisher]

True Tom!  Most likely, had it not been included in "the deal", we would have skipped town and headed for WG or down to Turnberry.

But...that being said...I have NEVER claimed that it was a great course BEFORE we went.  In other words, we had no idea what the Portland course would be like before we went, we just showed up and played it, and to our pleasant surprise it was truly enjoyable!  This was one of those "after the fact" kind of discoveries, and had our package been priced otherwise that day, I'd be sitting here touting how great some other Scottish course was !    

You know I can't resist telling that story, right

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Mark

I think Troon Portland is roughly as good as say, Crail, Tain, Glasgow Gailes, Brora, St, Andrews Eden, etc.  It suffers from it's location and lack of views, but I remember some interesting holes and a good use of small elevation changes.  My guess is that there is some good architecutre there, although I wasn't parrticularly looking for it when and under the circumstances I played.

I think that Tom and Evan's radically different feelings show how much non-golf issues can influence our view of the merits of various courses.  For a 1st time visitor, I wouldn't go out of my way to play Portland, but I wouldn't pass up the chance just to drive up and play Barassie, for example.

[THuckaby2]

Very cool, well said, Evan.  And heck yeah, that story bears repeating!

But relating this back to Gib's point, it's a good example, but maybe not the best.  Most people don't have TIME to "explore" Scotland and thus have to hit the "names" first and foremost.  I see nothing wrong with this.  With unlimited time, I believe anyone who posts here on GCA would seek out the Portland, and others like it, most definitely.  But sadly time is most-often too limited.

By the way, back to the original question of this thread, I got curious and I went through the entire listing of courses on the Southern California G.A. web site and I've come up with 183 played there.  Add that to my 180 in NorCal, and well... I may indeed be up there with Cirba if all courses world-wide are added in... It's just amazing to me people like Mike and Bob H. and others have chronicled such from the beginnings of their golf career!  I never did, thought never occurred to me.

TH

TH

[THuckaby2]

Rich:  non-golf issues most DEFINITELY influence my views, I've always said so.  Fact of life.  I defy anyone to enjoy Troon much if they were treated as I were there.  Same goes for Chicago GC... but that doesn't need repeating again.  Point is we are human, and this is supposed to be FUN.  At least for me it is.  Take away any element of the fun and the "evaluation" suffers.  Human nature.

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

What made it easy to keep track in my case is that I always enjoyed collecting things (i.e baseball & football cards, comic books) as a kid, and when I started golf a week before my 13th birthday, I began collecting scorecards.

At first, it was just to keep track of each round at my local 9-holer, but then when I played my second course, and my third, etc., I was astounded that each place was totally different and unique.  

That was always one of the most appealing things in the game to me...the limitless variety of the playing fields, and I also enjoyed the differences in the scorecards, with various maps, pictures, etc.  

30 years later and I have a chest full, one pristine card from each course I've played, in alphabetical order.

So now you know how I've kept track, as well as now having some insight into my obsessional nature.

[THuckaby2]

Makes sense to me, Mike.  Still doesn't decrease my amazement though!  I guess it comes from different perspective... My first round was at age 8 and I didn't even know what a scorecard was.  I do recall keeping most cards in a drawer for awhile as a kid, but at some point I tossed most of them... And like I say, I wish I had kept track, it would be fun to look back on.  But just too hard to go backwards, that's for sure.

Nowadays I just keep cards from memorable courses or rounds... oh, the ones I played with you are in the "keep" file for sure!

TH

[Evan Fleisher]

TH and Mike,

Interesting thoughts and experiences regarding collecting and/or lack thereof.  My logo golf ball collection (and subsequent record of all courses I've ever played) did not come about until just a few years ago (even though I've been playing golf now for 23 years!)

I got my first logo ball back in 1995 while playing at Pecan Valley in San Antonio (found it in the rough...a Pecan Valley PGA Championship logo ball).  From that day forward, I began to amass a collection of balls from each new course I played.  Then, I decided it would be cool to have logo balls from every course I'd ever played since I started.

I sat down with the Golf Digest "Places To Play" book, and along with the help of GolfCourse.Com, began to comb through the various places I'd lived and visited to find the courses I had played.  I guess my somewhat photographic memory helped a bit, but I was able to remember and /or come up with every course I'd played since that tender young age...from South Florida, to Atlanta, to trips up North, and then on to the more "adult" places I'd lived and worked.  Maybe I've missed one or two along the way, but I know I am pretty darn close.

Then, I'd write to each course and request logo balls from those older places I'd been and knew I wouldn't be getting back to anytime soon.  And...viola!...two logo ball racks later (courtesy of nice Xmas presents from my mother-in-law) I have my current "pride and joy" collection, in chronololically played order.  BTW Mike...I also have a bunch of scorecards from rounds played, but only from the last 5 or so years.

Talk about obsessive, compulsive!  I'm their poster-child!

[redanman (Guest)]

A good way to find obscure courses you may have forgotten golfcourse.com.  Use high speed access, go through a particular state (FL took a while, and was still incomplete for me) and you'll find ones you forgot that way.  I wan't compulsive enough when I was Yung.

(400 something for me, BTW)

[THuckaby2]

Bill, I always thought you were Jungian.

Just finished CA, gonna go through the other states soon enough.  I'm gonna catch Cirba, by God!

TH

[Evan Fleisher]

GolfCourse.Com was a GREAT resource for completing this exercise, but unfortunately the course(s) (one in particular) I can't remember are just that...and no computer program is gonna help me remember.

During the summer of 1990, my Dad and I made a trip to check out all the grad schools I was accepted to.  While in Boston (checking out BC), we played a local course in the area.  I have NO RECOLLECTION of what the course looked like, what it was called, or where it was located.  I've tried looking up old credit card receipts of my father's, called the local hotels where we might have stayed, but 11+ years ago is too long to find anything out.  Just have to chalk that one up to NOT FOUND, I guess!  

I know I'm pretty complete on the SoFla courses, and maybe I missed one from my days at Georgia Tech, but all else is solid since then.

[Mark_Fine]

Shivas,
Let me clue you in, Skokie and Beverly ARE big name courses.    Hidden gems is a relative term!  
Mark

[Gib_Papazian]

Mark,

My sense is that shivas is not really implying that Skokie and Beverly are not big names. I've come to believe that some courses get elevated less for clever architecture and more for that sense of grandious presence.

For instance, Shinnecock or PV communicate an expansive quality in similar fashion to the sensation I get when playing County Down.

Sometimes, I think that courses with a more intimate feel to them end up being perceived as "quaint or charming" even if they are beefy tests like Garden City.

Of course, Merion is the great exception in this observation. It has a towering reputation while still maintaining its quality of a private and clubby enclave. Perhaps this is due in part to the separation between the East and West courses.

Winged Foot has that sprawling feel to it also (Congressional?).  Sometimes "big" is it's own justification.

It really is a lot like wine, because the Screaming Eagle and Opus 1 get a lot of press and attention because they are full of nose and depth and sheer size. But by virtue of their "bigness," they overwhelm the more subtle qualities that -to me at least -  make smaller complex wines infinitely more interesting.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Gib

Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, Opus One gets a lot of press because Bobby Mondavi is 3***, 10  on the Doak Scale, or whatever, when it comes to PR?

Cheers

Brians

[George Pazin]

I'm not gonna out myself here 'cause then my posts will really get ignored...

To all you guys who've played hundreds of courses, I have a few questions:

- Do you have a home course where you play a lot, or do you constantly seek out new courses?

- Would you rather replay one of your favorites that you've already played or tackle a new hidden gem? (No obvious answers here, please, like "I'd rather replay Pine Valley than the Best New Private on GD's 2001 list, thank you very much")

- How do you find time for these pursuits?? (Just kidding, you don't have to answer this one)

[Mark_Fine]

Gib,
Wannamoisett?  Camargo?  Milwaukee?  The Valley Club?  There are exceptions to every rule but I understand what you are saying.  

I'd still like to hear your response to my original questions about these golfers you say are "collecting" courses and not learning anything because they only play noteworthy courses?

Again, aren't you one of these guys who makes them "noteworthy".  How did they get there in the first place?  Would you not recommend Pacific Dunes because it is on some Top 100 list?  How do you distinguish recommending that one from the other 99?  
Mark