Stanley Thompson and Jeff Mingay...

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I recently did an interview with Jeff Mingay, dealing mainly with Stanley Thompson.  For those of you who do not know our great Canadian architect, there is a good background and Jeff's answers are great.

I think it is fair to say that both Jeff and I hope this post will lead to a discussion of Thompson and his work.

Here is the link:
http://www.golftravelinformation.com/interview/mingay/

[David Wigler]

As far as I know, I have only played two of Thompson's courses - St. Georges and Capilano.  I thought that they were both outstanding.  Capilano is on my short list of the five favorite courses I have ever played.  The use of the mountain to trek down it and back up was inspired.  The variety of shots required on the par threes was tremendous.  I know we do not spend a lot of time here talking about aesthesis, but the tee shot at #6 may be the most visually stunning shot anywhere on the planet not blessed by crashing surf.

St. Georges is also a fantastic golf course.  For an inland setting in the middle of Toronto, I cannot imagine another architect getting better use out of the land.

This guy was very very good at his craft.

[TEPaul]

I'd love to see this discussion grow. I'd love to participate too but unfortunately know so little about Thompson--I bought the "Toronto Terror" but have only read a bit of it.

He certainly seems to be something though--real talent and thought by others to be so--but it seems his career was shorter than it should have been or maybe not as productive as a guy with that talent should have been.

Would you guys consider that Thompson was a bit of another casualty of the depression era--an era that surely had more of an effect on golf architecture and in more ways than most know?

[Tony Ristola]

Thompson is a product of Canada Syndrome...treated like second class citizens...the nation is either too humble or passive to aggresively move forward.  The only hope is for Quebec to seperate, the provinces west of Quebec to join the U.S. and for the U.S. to adopt Thompson as one of their own.  Then he might get some wider recognition.

[BCrosby]

Ben/Jeff

On a recent thread about Hyde Park in JAX, I was surprsed to learn that Thompson did a number of courses in Florida.  As I recall, Jeff said Thompson maintained an office in Florida for a time.

Any course recommendations?  Is there anything left down this way?

[David Wigler]

Tony,

At first, I chuckled at your post but I wonder if it has any validity.  If you compared Thompson's work to that of RTJ (Who worked for Thompson) I would assume most people would find Thompson's superior, yet RTJ got all the projects where Thompson did few.  That written, I have no idea if Thompson did so few because he was like C&C only without the benefit of so many available airplanes or did he do so few because those were the only ones offered to him.

[Todd Joesph]

Beechmont CC in Cleveland (Beechwood actually) is a Stanley Thompson design.  Unfortunatley, much like Shaker Heights CC in the same area (Ross) I believe it has suffered under the hands of greens committees that want to leave their mark on the course.  Last I heard, they were planning on replacing the "6 foot high sweeping face" on several bunkers with grass to ease the maintence on the course.  I caddied there for 6 summers and each year when I came back it seemed like new bunkers were appearing and old bunkers were disappearing.  I also believe the routing was changed at some point in the clubs history.    I would agree with Jeff's article that the par 3's are the highlight of the course.  Several make use of the river which bisect the course.

Sleepy Hollow is a ST public course in the same area that may be in more original condition although I cannot say for sure.

[TEPaul]

TonyR, my boy, methinks you forgot to add about 100 smiley faces when you wrote that last post about Canada!

When next you're there I'm not sure whether you should carry a bodyguard with you to French speaking Canada, English speaking Canada, or both!

And you say English speaking Canada should just join the Old US of A?! Well, what if we don't want 'em? They could be very expensive people, you know, and maybe we couldn't afford 'em!

Email me with your phone #--tpaul25737@aol.com

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

David,
Capilano, St. Thomas and Westmount are the major omissions from my Thompson resume, and now that you talk to highly of Cap, I really must go.

Thompson actually did produce a lot of courses, mainly in Canada, but I would not say that Thompson did few.

BCosby,
I will leave that to Jeff.

Tom Paul,
I had a chuckle at your post to Tony.  I am happy to see interest too, a great architect, nice to see some recognition.
Ben

[Tony Ristola]

TEPaul:  To prove my point that Canadians are rated as second class citizens... Cornish and CB Macdonald are Canadians by origin...both are better known by Americans than Thompson because they were in the US.

Does anyone outside this site know of McBroom?  The Finns probably know more about him (as he has a project there)...Carrick?  Rod Whitman is known because of his work in the US with Dye, not because of Wolf Creek, Schloss Langenstein, Golf de Medoc.  He seems to epitomize Canadians...low key...very nice people but under the radar.

Perhaps you wouldn't want the english speaking provinces...but if the Party Quebecouis (sic) gets their way it would be interesting to see what would happen.  

see msg no 2 for phone number.

[Jeremy Glenn II]

Tony

What have you got against Quebec??  

Actually, if you're saying the other provinces should merge with the United States, maybe I should ask "What have you got against the Rest of Canada?"      

[Tony Ristola]

Nothing against Quebec, just think it'd be a better country without it ...just like the Partie Quebecois thinks.

I can tell you friends on the left coast aren't thrilled with the double standard bilingualism brings...laws which apply to only English speaking Canada and not Quebec.

C'est manifique, non?

Forgot to include your group in the above...played Crown Isle many times and enjoyed it...but there it's considered a Ted Locke course.

[ian andrew (Guest)]

There is a lot more original Thompson work out there than people think. The tough part is to find courses that are entirely intact (like a Jaspar), but isn't that true of most architects. I can think of 10 Thompson courses people never talk about that contain lots of original holes (Kawartha Lakes, Lockport CC, Allandale, Brockville). Contrary to popular belief Stanley was quite prolific, especially when you concider how many places he remodelled too (Mississauga, Beaconsfield, etc.).

I enjoyed the article and agree with Jeff about the big baby in Jaspar. It is the most enjoyable (and suprisingly dangerous) par 3 I have played.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I am simply amazed by the number of us who love ST courses. The first time I played Jasper Park, it was like being at SFGC or cypress Point or seminole. You knew you were somewhere special and not just for moose either. My daughter wanted to kill me, but I had to play again and walk it twice more in the  late evening. I did not have the same opinion of Banff only to learn later it has been tampered with. I was drawn to Jasper like all the great courses get ahold of you. I hope to see more of his courses.

[Paul Daley]

Ben, thanks for bringing up the name of Jeff Mingay; the lad is a seriously good writer and he really knows his golf, and Stanley Thompson's body of work.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Ian,
Very good point, I tried to touch on that earlier, Thompson was not RTJ, but he produced lots.  The other thing that I think the interview may have falsely conveyed (my fault), is that Thompson's work prior to Jasper was poor.  Of course I think one of our favourites Cataraqui would be in my top 5 Thompson's and it was 1917 (I think).

John,
I agree with you about the setting, I would put Jasper in my least of three rounds I could play if that was all I had left.  Hard to match it for perfect golf setting.  I have not played Cypress or SFGC, but have played Seminole.  I think you are on par with your comments, very special.  Banff perhaps has lost a bit in the reorganization of the holes, put as it was in the fall, it too is a very special place.  Perhaps it just seems a bit more like a resort course, but isolate those holes and you have one of the best par threes I have ever seen, and one of the great stretches of five holes.

Paul,
It was a real pleasure, I have been happy to get to know him and was thrilled that we could overlap the interview with the features of Jasper and Banff.  Jeff is a resource to Canadian golf that needs to be utilized.  At least until Tony and his pals take over the other nine provinces (and territories, of course)

[Tony Ristola]

Ben:  I don't want to take over the other nine...Les Partie Quebecois has been trying to separate for a couple decades...something probably unknown south of the border (like Thompson himself) and in Europe (except France).  If I were in Canada I'd surely encourage them to move along  Au revoir mes amis.

I spent several years growing up there...in Ontario and B.C....beautiful place...truly nice people (a lot of my closest friends are Canucks)...shame about the political direction the country was directed, but that's only my opinion.  

As for the Thompson family of golf professionals, I'm happy to see anything which would elevate this man and his family's profile.  Mr. S. Thompson certainly must rank as one of the most unnoticed architects of all time.  Nice work guys.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tony,
I assume you know I am in Toronto, and I knew where you are coming from.  I agree with you on Thompson and I owe a lot of credit to Jeff for helping getting the word out.  

Thanks for the posts.

[Jeff Mingay]

I've been away from my computer for a few days. This discussion is a nice surprise to see!

Thompson is unquestionably one of the least heralded of the Golden Age greats. I guess this has to do with the fact that his best work is either extremely remote (Jasper, Banff, Highlands Links) or the property of exclusive private golf clubs (Capilano, St. George's).

DAVID WIGLER: I like Capilano a lot too. The setting is awesome; particularly the view of from the 6th tee! It's just too bad that Les Furber had to rebuild a few greens out there in recent times, including the sixth. The Furber greens stick out like a sore thumb in my eyes.

The club has some great antique photos of several holes in their original form in the clubhouse that are waiting to be utilized in a comprehensive restoration of the course! We'll see what transpires in the coming years.

I do also think the first three holes at Capilano are a little disappointing. (Although, I like the 2nd quite a bit.) The first and third holes aren't very interesting par 5s, unfortunately.    But the course "picks up steam" immediately thereafter, beginning with the par 3 fourth. And I'm thinking the last four holes at Capilano are (perhaps) better than the original closing four at Banff. I particularly like the long par 3 16th and the par 4 17th at Capilano.

Interesting story about St. George's too: the Canadian National Railway presented Thompson with some 2,000 acres and charged him to route the best course possible! Do you think he did? Probably.

The par 4 15th was considered to be one of Canada's best par 4 holes before Robbie Robinson moved the green back and converted it into a par 5 in preparation fo the '68 Canadian Open. And so was the fourth. Robbie moved the green back there as well, and it to plays as a par 5 today too. I think the fourth in particular would be improved if the green we returned to its original location.  

TOM PAUL: I talk with Jim Barclay (author of The Toronto Terror) from time to time, and we correspond by email. I've expressed to him that it's disappointing his book doesn't contain more info. about Thompson's design philosophy and style. And also more about specific Thompson designed courses (a la Klein's Ross book).

Jim's an excellent historical/biographical researcher (his first book, Golf in Canada, is the definitive volume on the history of golf in our country). But, admittedly, golf course architecture isn't Jim's realm.

Perhaps there's another Thompson book is the making? I don't know if the market can support one though.

And I don't know if Thompson was "another casualty of the depression era" either. It's kind of interesting that two of his best courses -- Capilano and Highlands Links -- were built during the depression though.

TONY RISTOLA: I think you hit the nail on the head, my friend! In general, Canadians are indeed too humble and too passive to agresesively move our country forward. I don't disagree. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know?

BCROSBY: I don't have too many details on Thompson's work in Florida in my head. I'll check my files when I get a chance to see if there's anything worth investigating these days. There might be. I'll let you know if I come across anything.  

Thanks for the comments everyone; particularly yours Paul Daley. As you already know, I'm an admirer of your golfing knowledge, your excellent writing, and most of all your overall take on the game as well.

I had a lot of fun answering Ben's questions... if there are any more, fire away  

[Tyler Kearns]

BCrosby,
    Thompson's other works in Florida are listed in the "Toronto Terror" as no longer existing, thus whatever contribution he made to Hyde Park is all that is left in that state.