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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2011, 11:01:44 AM »
Tony and Rory..
First Tony..I did not mean to single out a single group, just used them as an example of what splinter groupds of thugs exist.
I agree to what you bioth say, that is all true, but from an R&A perspective, why bother changing a winning formula when any potential issues exist...why take any risks and even slightly damaging a wondefrul product, that is my point.
Should they or shouldnt they does not even come into the question I fear...they simply dont want to and wont take any gamble, with thier prescious product.

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2011, 11:10:38 AM »
Michael

  Your observation about the lack of risk tolerance is a good one.  One could always argue that though the climate is amenable at the moment, the R&A cannot predict what the climate will be 5-10 years out which seems to be the reasonable lead time.  Its not an argument that I necessarily buy but I can totally understand why it could have a significant influence on decision making in this hypothetical.

  Perhaps there is a more fundamental reason for not returning.  The rota has proven to be very successful and the R&A have aclose to a turn key operation.  It has established all of the relationships necessary to stage successful events at the rota clubs.  Why reinvent the wheel? 

 

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2011, 11:25:27 AM »

Rory

I am an old boy of The Royal School Dungannon, I had a great life in Northern Ireland, but like Scotland the days are numbered as to how long the union will last with England. Its such a stupid idea on breaking away when in fact life has been sustained at the expense of The English tax payers. Scotland nor NI can or will be better off due to the population 7million in Scotland and what 1  to 1.5 million in NI. Where is all the money going to come from to afford power sharing, or all the SNP expenditure that makes them look so attractive to the Labour minded Scot.

So with the threat of NI being part of the South The Open suddenly becomes an alien Championship with no bearing on either North or South. So why go down that road in the first place, where is the short term gain or reward in doing so. Simply its not worth the effort. Yet this is a double edge question in that it will relate to England if Scotland go for the Independence, suddenly its not relevant to England anymore being first played in Scotland before going south. The Open will become The Open and will I suspect quietly replace The Scottish Open farce we have today.

The Open is an All Comers Competition and the victor was regarded as The Champion of Scotland – if we go down the independent road the Champion Golfer of Scotland will again be the Winner of The Open - turning full circle.

The issue is one of continuity, of making money and security cost money, hence I believe the R&A will not hold another Open in NI.

As for England/Scotland, well we will just have to wait and see if Scotland really wants separation from England when the union has been so good for Scotland. However some people are starting to wake up to the full consequence of total independence. Realising that all costs will have to be the responsibility of Scotland alone with no 50 million English there to help to bail out a Greek style Scottish Government.

Sorry Rory but that is how I see the current situation.

Melvyn

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2011, 11:42:22 AM »
Melvyn

  If the recent survey I read about is any indication, I would be surprised if Northern Ireland were to become independent or be absorbed into the Republic.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110617/wl_uk_afp/nirelandbritainirelandpolitics_20110617143345

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2011, 11:48:27 AM »

Rory

Great news but will it start off all the Troubles again?

Melvyn


Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2011, 12:03:34 PM »
If you still want reasons to do this


Sports thrive on excitement.   An Open at RCD or Portrush offers the following.

1
The international TV audience is more important than the turnstile customer. What kind of buzz would there be to sell to the foreign networks with Rory and GMac teeing it up in the first Open to be held in NI in 60 years?  There’s a story here and the press love a good story.

2
Over time the current  Open routine might yet come to be a turn off for the larger TV audience.  Troon looked flat, but Turnberry looked great. Yet Punter numbers on the ground voted otherwise (transport issues?).  I wager Turnberry will command a premium as a TV event, long after Troon, Lytham, Hoylake, Muirfield and Carnoustie have lost their appeal.  I wonder how long they’ll persevere with TOC every five years?  The Ulster courses are both wonderful and photogenic.

3
The R&A look to the government to provide funds and a benign environment in which to do business. The Government should lean on them to take the Open to another part of the Union. The Queen at her age had no personal reason to visit Ireland, let’s just observe everyone is glad she did. Sometimes you have a larger responsibility to take on. The Open in Ulster would have a huge stimulus on the local economy and it needn’t cost Westminster much at all.  It would also be seen locally as a peace bonus.
Melvyn worries about the state of the Union; this could be a reminder of the benefits of being part of a larger whole and that should appeal to the current largest party in Westminster.

4
Because unlike, Prestwick, Mussleburgh, Princes and Deal (as it currently is) Portrush is a part of The Open’s history that could still stage the tournament tomorrow.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2011, 12:14:23 PM »
I would imagine also that Portrush will seek and receive The Irish Open sooner rather than later...

There's one to confuse you... The Irish Open!... In the United Kingdom!

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2011, 12:24:11 PM »
Tony

I just do not see it happening and mainly because of the lack of stability.

You have given many reasons why, all I have to do is give one reason why not – Security, it only takes one idiot with a gun or whatever to take to focus off the golf and The Open will be a shambles. If this happens the outcry against the R&A would be tremendous. They not only face the embarrassment but also of losing The Open to others as well as being challenged as the Governing Body. In short THEY have too much to lose – so it just will not happen.

Rest assured all those unhappy with the performance of The R&A will be voicing their concerns and I too will be a voice challenging their continued right to control Golf on their past record

You give many good reasons for, but one simple little reason against is all it will take, they can’t afford to take the chance, certainly if Scotland votes Yes to more independence.

Melvyn

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2011, 12:28:44 PM »

Ally

Irish rugby (Union) select Members from the Northern Ireland clubs to play for Ireland in Dublin though.

Melvyn


Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2011, 01:06:17 PM »

Ally

Irish rugby (Union) select Members from the Northern Ireland clubs to play for Ireland in Dublin though.

Melvyn



Yes indeed... I was being facetious... I'm just indicating it's not a particularly easy one to figure out... People who live in the North are entitled to citizenship of both Ireland and Britain and may consider themselves primarily Irish, British or Northern Irish... Some Catholics consider themselves British, some Protestants consider themselves Irish... I'm willing to bet that some of those 75% who do not want independence from the United Kingdom even consider themselves Irish whilst answering the poll...

To me, Rory's poll indicated that Northern Ireland is gradually becoming comfortable in its own skin, in the same way the Republic of Ireland has had to do all over again since 1922...

Spending time on outdated views about "the troubles" does the new evolving country a great disservice in my layman's opinion...

With regards to the Open at Portrush, I like the cut of Tony's jib... I'm more inclined to agree with Rory that the R&A have no need to look for another venue at the moment...

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2011, 01:25:17 PM »
Ally, I think "comfortable in its own skin" is a good way to put it.

Melvyn - Ravenhill is actually owned by the IRFU and hosted its last international in 2007.  Ultimately the stadium is not of adequate size to host test matches as it only seats 19,000 so the majority of games are played in the Republic but its more a practical consideration.

Craig Van Egmond

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2011, 01:46:16 PM »

They are going to have the 2016 summer olympics in Rio, a city with a very high crime rate and lots of homicides, certainly NI can support an Open Championship.


Niall C

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2011, 02:04:37 PM »
Gents

Can I suggest that there is a big difference between crime and terrorism. Other parts of the world may have more crime but crime can be managed better in major sporting situations due to the high visible presence of police and security. Terrorism on the other hand is about creating chaos, destabilising and making a point, all in order to achieve a change in the order of doing things. Are we at the point in NI where there isn't groups of motivated people with means and a desire to use an Open as an opportunity to achieve there own ends through a single act of terrorism ? I'm not sure I know the answer to that.

I do know that it has been roughly ten years, give or take a few years, since I played in the inaugral Belfast Challenge golfing tournament with visitors from all over. I've been back to NI and Belfast several times since, had a great time, and never felt threatened.

As an aside on the Glasgow comments and sectarianism, that is obviously a hot topic at the moment in Scotland, can I point out that a lot of it is focused on the Old Firm and that a significant part fo their fanbase both at the games and elsewhere, is from Ireland.

Niall

Matthew Hunt

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2011, 07:03:10 PM »
Niall, I appreciate what you are saying but at risk of actually agreeing with Thatcher, murder is murder, a crime is a crime. It's how it is framed that is changed. The RIRA are many things but stupid is not one of them, they would know attacking a major sporting event is an own goal. Although they want get noticed more in 'the mainland' attack in Britain may be more likely as they are more active there than near Newcstle or Portrush. If the Queen can come to  An Gairdín Cuimhneacháin, taking Ben Crane and his mates to the Mountians of Mourne seems like a very small step.

Scott Warren

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2011, 08:50:32 PM »
Matthew:

Quote
at risk of actually agreeing with Thatcher, murder is murder, a crime is a crime.

I disagree. Most murders are committed by someone known to the victim. Terrorism is not. Most murders involve one victim. Most acts of terrorism do not.

The point of terrorism is that we don't know where, by whom or when it will be carried out, or who will be targeted.

The two are very different things.

Brian Phillips

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2011, 01:27:32 AM »
Ben, I notice rather than refute any of my points you've decided to cut and run, with a sly kick on the way out the door.

Quote
The Mail is utter rubbish the only good thing they do is football transfer gossip!

To each their own, but about 60 million unique browsers a month disagree with you.
60 million unique users logging in each month does not qualify the website to be of quality.  It is crap but still worth a visit each day just for the bikini clad pictures of women and the opinions of readers under the articles.  It is still absolute crap.

The troubles in NI are over. 

When I was in the Army in the 90's I was not even allowed to visit the island so it was a strange feeling driving around there a number of years ago and being welcomed by the Irish.  There was one area in Ireland where I was told not to mention that I had been in the Army but apart from that there is no difference between the island and any other European country I have visited.

Scott, you are the first person that I have heard that says they felt safe in Moscow....

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2011, 08:03:42 AM »

Brian

Love it    it's the way you tell them, but still The Open will not return to NI

Melvyn

Craig Van Egmond

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2011, 10:36:54 AM »

More violence in Belfast...  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13873307

Not looking good for an Open in NI anytime soon.

Niall C

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2011, 01:08:16 PM »
Niall, I appreciate what you are saying but at risk of actually agreeing with Thatcher, murder is murder, a crime is a crime. It's how it is framed that is changed. The RIRA are many things but stupid is not one of them, they would know attacking a major sporting event is an own goal. Although they want get noticed more in 'the mainland' attack in Britain may be more likely as they are more active there than near Newcstle or Portrush. If the Queen can come to  An Gairdín Cuimhneacháin, taking Ben Crane and his mates to the Mountians of Mourne seems like a very small step.

Matthew,

I do agree with you that a terrorist act which results in the killing of a human being is murder. What I was referring to was the motivation. I suggest that a big sporting event would be an ideal opportunity for extremists to destabilise the economy, the political landscape if you will by an act of terrorism. As Craig has posted, their are still acts of terrorism going on in NI. Perhaps not yet on the scale that the supposedly now defunct organisations used to perpertate but but if the will was there it wouldn't be difficult to do.

Brian

I bet at the height of the troubles there would have been large parts of NI where you day to day life was pretty normal.

Niall

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2011, 05:33:40 PM »
Graeme isn't letting it go.   


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/13932159.stm


Nice to see a pro think baout something other than how the green(backs) played out this week.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Doug Siebert

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2011, 02:39:57 AM »
So if Al Qaeda just set its sights lower in NYC and simply did the occasional car bomb rather than hoping to match or beat 9/11, would it suddenly be unsafe to have the US Open back to Shinnecock?  C'mon, there is the assumption of the possiblity of violence at any major sporting event.  Violence in Belfast doesn't mean that the security they are already using at the Open wouldn't work for an Open in Ireland.  After all, if some IRA sympathizer wants to cause trouble, why would be restricted to only doing it close to home?  The R&A are already preparing against potential terrorist attacks from Al Qaeda, the same preparations would apply inside Ireland.  Obviously the 2012 Olympics is preparing for this possibility, and few people seem to be worried it should be held somewhere that's under less threat from terrorism.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Carl Johnson

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2011, 07:14:54 AM »
By chance I was in Portrush during the two nights of troubles in Belfast early last week, and then arrived in Belfast on June 25 for a four day stay.  I arrived home late last night and am still on Belfast time.  In Belfast we had a nice hotel in the university area.  (Golf, of course, about which more later, was the reason for the trip.)

On Sunday afternoon our driver, a Belfast native, gave us a tour of the "troubles" areas in west Belfast and the area of the recent action to the northeast.  His take is that the violence is limited to the "ghettos" and the bombing of police stations and other government facilities, and is instigated/fomented by thugs and gangs who want to keep things stirred up for their own purposes, which include running protection rackets and other criminal activity.

Sunday afternoon was calm, but for an American visitor seeing for the first time the west Belfast "peace lines," gate-closed streets, murals (at least one continuing to advocate violence in the name of religion), police stations (at least one) built like forts, an Orange marching band breaking up, and groups of young and not so young men and some women in their colors staring each other down from opposite sides of a thoroughfare, the situation was somewhat disquiting.  They next day our driver told us that the making of a large fertilizer bomb "down south" had just been discoverd and stopped by the police, and that it had probably been intended for shipment to Belfast to use against a police station.  Here's a newspaper report.  http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/two-arrested-after-device-made-safe-in-louth-510485.html

I've reached no conclusions of course, but my interest in the "troubles" situation is quite obviously much greater now than it had been before my visit.

Among other courses, we played both Portrush Dunluce and the championship course at RCD.  Our group of eight 62- to 70-year-old seniors included a wide range of handicaps, from a top senior golfer in N.C., who is a 0.7 index, to me, with a 20.6 index.  The 0.7 played as far back at Portrush as they allowed him, which was not all the way back, and finished a legitimate one over under benign conditions.  Even I could play Portrush from a more forward set of tees.

At RCD, also under benign conditions, the 0.7 "shot an 83" that was not legit.  They did allow him to play from the so-called "championship tees."  I'd say that if he played it by the book, the 0.7 would probably have finished in the low 90's.  (All of our competitions were modified Staplefords, with generous allowances for lost balls.)  For me the RCD course was not playable, except for later in the round, at 15 I think it was, where the fairway was wide off the tee and you could actually see it.  Clearly, someone made a mistake there.  Our consensus was that if you are not a four handicapper or better, don't waste your money at RCD.  (For us humans they ought to figure out how to make some money just offering walking tours of the course with knowledgeable guides.)

So, I'd love to see an Open at RCD, but my sense is that there is no way spectators could be safely accomodated on the course, or that the members would allow it.  Based on my one round, I would think that Dunluce could handle all of the spectators likely to get there, and that it would be a legitimate test for the pros.  
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 09:36:54 AM by Carl Johnson »

Martin Toal

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2011, 11:42:12 AM »
Perhaps this is an inappropriate or even ignorant question,but are the NI golfers Protestant  or Catholic,and would their religion keep those of the other from supporting them?

Not an ignorant question at all.

Both Protestant and Catholic and almost always mixed at the same clubs.

Golf is somewhat above petty sectarianism. So too is rugby, and both games are played on an all-Ireland basis. Football (soccer) is a different matter, and will take a lot longer to settle.

I am from NI, and have family in several locations there. The Troubles are over, and will not come back as previously experienced, but occasional isolated problems may occur. The R&A would not stop going to the Lancashire coast just because there was a possibility of a riot following a BNP or English Defence League protest nearby (as has happened from time to time), or because there is sectarian trouble in Edinburgh or Glasgow (common).

In response to Carl (above), I think it would be a huge shame if only 4 handicappers or better played RCD. I have never been, nor ever will be, a 4, but I love RCD and consider it one of the finest courses I have ever seen or played. Now, if you are a 22 handicapper, and have a chronic slice, you will need either a huge amount of patience or a bottomless bag of golf balls. A friend who is a good +1 played RCD in Open Week (off Championship tees) and shot a 74 in a 2 club wind. He said it was one of the best rounds he ever played, hitting 2 irons off tees and 4 irons in to the greens.

JMEvensky

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2011, 12:18:18 PM »


In response to Carl (above), I think it would be a huge shame if only 4 handicappers or better played RCD. I have never been, nor ever will be, a 4, but I love RCD and consider it one of the finest courses I have ever seen or played. Now, if you are a 22 handicapper, and have a chronic slice, you will need either a huge amount of patience or a bottomless bag of golf balls. A friend who is a good +1 played RCD in Open Week (off Championship tees) and shot a 74 in a 2 club wind. He said it was one of the best rounds he ever played, hitting 2 irons off tees and 4 irons in to the greens.


RCD is probably my favorite golf course.I love everything about it.BUT,a 22,or maybe even a 12,has to be borderline masochistic to play it.RCD is brutal.

Echoing your +1 friend,I played RCD the week before the Open and ran into 3 US Tour Pros--none of whom was playing from the back markers.One of them asked me why I was dumb enough to think that I could.He said that he'd played RCD over 20 times,thought it was the best course in the world,and thought it was the hardest course he'd ever played.

This is a guy who's won ~ 15 tournaments.

I wish I could play it every day.

Martin Toal

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Re: Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2011, 12:59:37 PM »


In response to Carl (above), I think it would be a huge shame if only 4 handicappers or better played RCD. I have never been, nor ever will be, a 4, but I love RCD and consider it one of the finest courses I have ever seen or played. Now, if you are a 22 handicapper, and have a chronic slice, you will need either a huge amount of patience or a bottomless bag of golf balls. A friend who is a good +1 played RCD in Open Week (off Championship tees) and shot a 74 in a 2 club wind. He said it was one of the best rounds he ever played, hitting 2 irons off tees and 4 irons in to the greens.


RCD is probably my favorite golf course.I love everything about it.BUT,a 22,or maybe even a 12,has to be borderline masochistic to play it.RCD is brutal.

Echoing your +1 friend,I played RCD the week before the Open and ran into 3 US Tour Pros--none of whom was playing from the back markers.One of them asked me why I was dumb enough to think that I could.He said that he'd played RCD over 20 times,thought it was the best course in the world,and thought it was the hardest course he'd ever played.

This is a guy who's won ~ 15 tournaments.

I wish I could play it every day.

I think that one difference between some local mid handicappers and overseas visitors is one of expectation. A 15 handicapper from a club in Northern Ireland would play RCD and be happy to get round without having to borrow golf balls and a score under 100.

I wonder if overseas players are more concerned about the score they shoot and get more distressed if they can't hit a par-4 in 2?

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