[ward peyronnin]

i just returned from playing a golf course designed by an archie of merit and who commands favorable consideration on these pages and which was located in a stunning setting, artistically attractive and routed over exciting topography in a clever and appealing way. These features combined to present an appearance of world class golf but for me something didn't quite come together.

I finally concluded the internal green features and the green surrounds and approaches and green complex settings seemed to go against each others grain and made the playability confusing or downright nearly impossible for shots struck well but not exactly where the very complex features rewarded them. Most of the time these areas were woefully small or just not intuitive or discernable from the distances the shot demanded. Nor did they combine to allow the bogey golfer to play an reasonable achievable alternative such as a proper ground shot.

The comment was made that St Andrew's is not straightforward either but my recollection of those features are such that often a twist or turn one way by a feature such as a mound is complemented by another such feature which, if the shot is struck with some knowledge and skill, will counter the effect of the first.

So I searched for a proper concept to express this opinion and the best that came to mind is that I personally felt that the course was "tricked up"; Although this is often cavalierly and sign of laziness appropriate in some cases. Can it be a short hand that works for thoughtful people to describe a course so that other golf course enthsiasts get what they are saying?  Is there a standard sort of valid concept that can be associated? The only other response I felt I could employ was "this is not a place I would want to play everyday" but that is not really as descriptive i suppose

Finally when do architect's cross the line and foray form a cool and unique sets of features to "tricked up" ones and i don't mean the blatant like waterfalls and putt putt

[Pete Lavallee]

Ward,

When I hear tricked up I usually think of something done to the golf course after the architect's work is completed. Things like increasing putting speeds beyond what the contours will allow, growing longer rough, narrowing fairways and fluffing bunker sand all conspire to trick up the course and make scoring more difficult.

You're encounter would probably be best described as overly penal.

[Niall C]

Ward

I think I know what your getting at. Basically where what is being asked is either unknowable or the skill level required so acute as to make the shot a lottery for someone without the expertise. At that point you have a disconnect between ability to conceive the shot and ability to execute.

Care to mention what course you are referring to ?

Niall

[ward peyronnin]

edi think you are on the right track, well said
Niall I

Will reveal course later

[Jim Tang]

To me, "tricked up" means there are no viable options on how to play the golf hole.  Well struck shots are not rewarded, and in many cases, are actually punished. 

I do not mind difficult golf courses that required demanding golf shots.  However, you need to give the golfer a way to play the hole that is reasonable.  If you don't provide that avenue, then I consider the hole/course to be "tricked up".

[Tom_Doak]

Ward:

"Tricked up" is not a phrase I have used to describe courses, although it's possible some have used it to describe mine.

I think it represents the crossing of an imaginary line of reasonableness, which would be different for each observer.  In other words, I think the features in question would be okay with most players at some dosage level, but would fall into the category of "tricked up" if a certain level is exceeded ... but that level is a matter of taste.  So, I don't like the term much.

I am sure some people have described Lost Dunes as tricked up, though I wouldn't agree.  As I remember, you are a fan of it, so you have a pretty high tolerance level.  So ... Tetherow?

[Michael Goldstein]

"tricked up" is a very common saying in Australia.

Whilst I don't use the phrase, if someone asked me I'd respond with the hole at Doonbeg with the bunker in the middle of the green.  Bunker - ok, whatever you're into.. Out of bounds - fine.  But the green is a rock-n-rolling disaster.

[Steve Lang]

  in my experience...  it means it takes way too much local knowledge to overcome the architecture or there's no real attempt by player to understand what's being presented or how to best play it

[Ken Moum]

Among the guys I know, tricked up means the ball doesn't alway end up where they thought it should, or that they can't figure out how to play the holes.

I've heard it applied to courses you've heard of here--Black Mesa, and Cottonwood Hills.  And I have heard it applied to a course as unheralded as Winfield (Kan.) Country Club.

At Black Mesa they complaint was mostly about number of crazy bounces or rolls your could get, both in the fairway and on the greens.

At Cottonwood, the complaint was usually about the blindness, the wild undulations in some of the greens, and one hole (14?) with a huge, rough-covered mound in the fairway where everyone wanted to put their tee shot.

A Winfield, it's usually been about old greens with steep slopes and the club's love of fast greens.  For some reason golfers don't like having chip shots come back off the green when they don't get them to the hole.

But the thing that will bring out the pejorative "tricked up" quicker than anything is a centerline hazard.

K

[archie_struthers]

 

I'm with the guys who see tricked up as relating to the maintenance practices no the architecture.  It might involve excessive green speeds and super high rough, or crazy pin placements.  At our clubs we have an annual tournament called the Peter Sellers, where we set up some crazy ,crazy pins and tee positions to match.

[Adrian_Stiff]

'Tricked up' in my mind is more of a temporary condition, by that I mean pins tucked away in corners that are hard to approach because of firmness or on ledges that dont afford reasonable putting and making for lots of missed putts so the scores remain high. It is amazing how we all interpret these terms differently.

[Adam Clayman]

I finally concluded the internal green features and the green surrounds and approaches and green complex settings seemed to go against each others grain and made the playability confusing or downright nearly impossible for shots struck well but not exactly where the very complex features rewarded them. Most of the time these areas were woefully small or just not intuitive or discernable from the distances the shot demanded. Nor did they combine to allow the bogey golfer to play an reasonable achievable alternative such as a proper ground shot.

I'm gathering "tricked up" is a descriptive, for lack of a better term.

What is described, I often try to relate as "Trying to figure out what the shaper was thinking, versus, trying to figure out what nature is doing".

Tricks, like having putts break away from ponds, is another pet peeve. What is the architect thinking when they do this? Is he/she trying to be cute? Counter intuitive?

My guess is this was an attempt to make the scores higher, especially for better players. Making them think the golf course is challenging, or, has deep secrets to reveal, when in reality the "tricked up" green is just impossible to read and extremely difficult to make putts on.

Mountain settings are specifically places where this, small scale tricking, can be easily done. Fooling the golfer, because there are no visual clues that a putt will have two or three counter influences, from the natural movement, seriously affecting the balls journey to the hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

There are always visual clues about what the putt is going to do, even in a mountain setting, if you take time to consider them.  Yes, it's more complicated than on a plain-vanilla course, but I don't think that qualifies as "tricking up" a course, unless the architect is deliberately trying to fool you.  And I'm not sure I've ever seen a course where I thought the architect was just deliberately trying to fool me.

I suppose some people feel this way about Rock Creek, because some of the greens are indeed difficult to decipher ... they don't all just follow the same slope as the general hillside, and more than one of them is built to "float" in space, where the lack of ability to see the surrounds makes for a scary approach.  That is about trying to intimidate a good player, but not about trying to trick them.

[michael damico]

I'm with the guys who see tricked up as relating to the maintenance practices no the architecture.  It might involve excessive green speeds and super high rough, or crazy pin placements.  At our clubs we have an annual tournament called the Peter Sellers, where we set up some crazy ,crazy pins and tee positions to match.

and in those cases, it is the maintenance setup, but dictated by the green committee or chair. What about when that is applied to the pros: is the US Open (and almost the PGA for that matter) "tricked up" to some extent?

[Mac Plumart]

Perhaps we are thinking of different meanings for the term.  "Tricked up" to me is a maintenance crew 'tricking' up a course to make it more difficult.  East Lake is like that before the Tour Championship.  The bermuda rough is grown up to a ridculous level, the greens are firmed up and sped up to insane levels so that even the most basic and routine approach shot is stressfull.

I don't find playing mountain golf, in and of itself, to be tricked up.  You need to check the mountain range location relative to the green.  If the general slope of the mountain takes you, say, left to right, and the green appears to break right to left...play less break as the mountain ranges predominant angle can create an optical illusion.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, I'd be curious if you could share your intent at RCCC? Were you given specific marching orders as it relates to the level of player? Maybe more precisely put, did you design most of that course to intimidate the better player?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, I'd be curious if you could share your intent at RCCC? Were you given specific marching orders as it relates to the level of player? Maybe more precisely put, did you design most of that course to intimidate the better player?

Adam:

The client at Rock Creek, Bill Foley, is a 2-handicap golfer and a member of Oakmont, and about ten other places.

One of his golfing pals and founder members, Don DuBois, won the California State Amateur at Pebble a few years back, beating the college boys at age +/- 40.

I understood they wanted a challenging course.  I might have over-achieved there; we built a course which frustrates the two of them to the max.  Don has been probably the member who is most critical of the course and the greens ... they drive him crazy because he doesn't make as many birdies as he wants to.  As W would say, "Mission Accomplished".

[Jeff_Brauer]

I would agree in general with Tom Doak that "it represents the crossing of an imaginary line of reasonableness, which would be different for each observer.  In other words, I think the features in question would be okay with most players at some dosage level, but would fall into the category of "tricked up" if a certain level is exceeded ... but that level is a matter of taste."

That said, there are certain features that seemingly go overboard with enough players that the taste level is pretty well defined!

The phrase is usually used for designs by guys like Doak, Dye, and others trying to build harder golf courses that require some imagination and apply a penalty for certain types of shots.  Specifically, the term often is followed by phrases like "windmills, clowns mouth, etc.) to compare a green to minature golf, whereby a missed shot may lead to a large score after hitting the windmill blade.

As far as I can tell, a green is called  "tricked up" if either the first putt, initial approach shot or recovery chip cannot be played to stop anywhere near the pin, even if hit well.  And especially if a shot that hits the green leaves the green or a putt gets de-greened.  And mostly, if those features are in the middle of the green, which most players feel should be the "safe part" on nearly any hole. 

So, this might be a combo of design and maintenance, but any wild green contours are the most likely thing to be called tricked up.  
If there are other features getting that name, it might be fw with cross slope too steep to hold a reasonable shot.  If ther are things like fw too narrow, or carries too far, those are usually just calle unfair, or forgotten as players go somewhere else.
 

[cary lichtenstein]

Excessively high rough, green fall offs on too many holes, middle fairway and middle green bunkers, downhill sloping greens with front pin placements and no way to run up, native areas just too often and too close to play, fairways that slope to excessive rough so that you really have only 1/3 of the fairway to reasonably hit, downhill lies in bunkers close to greens, excessively soft sand, courses so resistant to scoring that you tell your host to never invite you back.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Excessively high rough, green fall offs on too many holes, middle fairway and middle green bunkers, downhill sloping greens with front pin placements and no way to run up, native areas just too often and too close to play, fairways that slope to excessive rough so that you really have only 1/3 of the fairway to reasonably hit, downhill lies in bunkers close to greens, excessively soft sand, courses so resistant to scoring that you tell your host to never invite you back.

Thats just called a bad course Cary.

[ward peyronnin]

Good observation Adrian

I very much like Lost Dunes Tom and I have heard it called tricked up. The sixth green could be called that when played as a 460 yd two shorter but as i played the course i learned how to hit shots from various places around that green because even tho the slopes are severe they are continuous and i can anticipate the roll. Those greens roll tru tho there are spots , I remember one on 14, that are impossible

A specific hole I have in mind is a long uphill par 4 fairway sloping L to r and a green perched up high. I struck one of the best 3 woods i could hit along the left side of the green only to have it  it hit the upslope convex apron lose steam and feed20 yds l to r to a collection area. I was faced with a chip shot  I had to land on a l to r upslope and but which quickly became aan oblique ridge running out to the right and past the hole with several small internal mounds left over the ridge to traverse the hole. Now i can vision a shot that turns two or maybe three ways but I defy even the best player to negotiate all that garbage to have a chance to make an up and down. Why have a well place shot that should run up feed to an implausible up and down? This crosses the imaginary line of reasonable. Not much different than grossly penal carries , except one vs two shots hickey, or holes with no chance of recovery. How much funn are those to play?

There is also an element of flow to the holes that seem to beg for running shots yet the green fronts or locations deny that opportunity and present a confusing vision.

[Frank M]

I don't really agree with the term "tricked up" either, but there is definitely unfair.

If I had to define  "tricked up" it I think it would fall somewhere along the lines of Tom Doak's....anything that goes against or beyond reasonableness.

An example I ran into very recently had me shaking my head.

The approach shot demanded the golfer hit off a severely downhill lie to an elevated green which slopes significantly from front to back with bunkers guarding the front. The hole also played in a downwind direction which was also the supposed prevailing wind. It was just downright awful in that the designer did everything possible to oppose the very nature of the shot....to me just extremely unreasonable.

[Jim Nugent]

I'm 99.9% sure the course Ward is talking about is Rock Creek. 

[Sean_A]

To me, tricked up is usually about the greens either being too fast for ths slopes or holes located in stupid places.  I don't mind coming across shots which look doable, but in fact are all but impossible, thats just a matter of experience.  Tricked up is usually a term I would associate with American courses, but I rarely come across courses I think are tricked up.  A hole or two may be off the scales, but thats okay by me as all courses need controversy - holes that 50% hate and 50% like. 

Ciao

[Carl Rogers]

Let's talk about a specific example many of you will be familiar ...

Hole 8 at PD, the first time I played the course ... left hand hole location (remember the blind bunker in back??).

Golfer is me, mid single digit handicapper, strikes a very nice crisp 7 iron and lands 10 feet in front of the hole and then I watch in great dismay as the ball slowly but surely dissapears from view off the back and into this bunker.  3rd shot is 8 inches too short and I try the bunker shot again and successfully hit the correct shot and make a 5 footer for a bogey. 

Question:  Is this tricked up, should I walk up to the green and examine the green complex and ground conditions holding up play or should I just get better?

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