The "Punchbowl" as a template.

[BCrosby]

Chris made pretty extensive notes during the Rivermont rebuild. Those notes make for a fascinating peek into how he thought through various architectural issues. I wish more owners and architects kept such notes. We would all learn from them.

The 9th at Rivermont is an imaginative PB. You hit 3w as close to the leftside fw bunker as you dare in order to open the green. Then try to hit something below the pin. It was down front the day we played. I would guess that you could use the PB collection effect to gather balls to back pins.

Rivermont is a course that proves you don't need a big budget to have good architecture. For most Brits that might sound obvious. For us Yanks, it is not something we see everyday.

Bob

[herrstein]

Hoping I know how to post, this is the 11th at Lookout Mountain.

[herrstein]

Can't figure out how to post an image...
Also trying to post the 6th at Black Creek.
You can view them here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/fdstein/Steinland

[BCrosby]

Doug -

Not that pictures of your children at the beach aren't a delight , but I would love to see a photo of the the 6th at Black Creek. It is another wonderful PB. It's a bit radical in the sense that the PB extends around the front of the green making the approach shot semi blind. Great hole, wonderful course.

The only downside was that I played BC with Mike Young that day who shot something in the high 60's. His unrelenting ebullience made ride back to Atlanta that night very painful.

Bob 

[Chris Cupit]

The 6th at Black Creek is a blast to play. It combines and alps feature into the puchbowl.  It is a par 5 that is semi-reachable after a good drive.  For your second you face and enormous alps hill in your way that contains two bunkers at its base--looks a little like the spectacles and maybe they were the inspiration for this cross hazard feature.  On the other side of the alp the grounds runs hard downhill and right to an enormous punchbowl green.

I think it is a terrific hole and lots of fun to play.  I have heard some complain about havinfg a blind approach shot (third) after laying up bhind the alps but I love it.  I can't remember if you can lay up and avoid the blind approach but in any case it is a terrific hole.

[David Harshbarger]

Can't figure out how to post an image...
Also trying to post the 6th at Black Creek.
You can view them here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/fdstein/Steinland

Some advice on this....

http://www.yotatech.com/f122/how-embed-pictures-picasa-200446/

[herrstein]

Ok, ok, another try. (If you go through the beach pics, the golf pics are at the end.
But let's try this:



https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-UFX_57YSbec/TfPR4n3A6vI/AAAAAAAABr4/IrhQY1V4MYc/s144/11lmgcpeet.jpg

[herrstein]

#11 Lookout Mountain.
I think I got it this time.

[herrstein]

The 6th at Black Creek, par 5.

[herrstein]

Chris: Come on and play sometime. I don't get out much anymore, with all these kids, butit would be great to see you.
Bob: Sorry about Mike. He reminds me of the advice I got from Brother Eddie Caldwell at UNC-Chapel Hill: "You young boys need to cling to these rules for behavin'. You need to Love, Lie and Steal: You Love your brother. You Lie in your own bed. And Steal away from from Bad Company.

[Tim Gerrish]

Mr. Stein,  Thanks for posting pictures of Black Creek!! 

The area we all seemed to have miss with punchbowls in this discussion is the shot value.  The very simple idea of executing a long iron or fairway wood/metal club and reaching the green.  I think many "more accomplished players" tend to take this for granted.  However the 80% or such that occasionally break 90 go bananas with the opportunity for a birdie putt on such a hole.  So what if it is a little easier of a hole than others.  Sometimes there are par 3.5holes  and others that are par 4.5.

Look at the punchbowl at NGLA.  With a blind uphill approach at the NGLA and some of the punchbowls I've been involved with (Black Creek, Black Rock, Red Tail, and the Raynor renovations, etc, there is so much anticipation I find myself running up the approach to find where the ball stopped.  Is it close??!! 
 
The Alps hole concept is different since you have to carry the blind green surface due to the fronting bunker. 

I just don't find the concept that appealing on shorter holes or complexes where you can see the putting surface.  Has anyone played a punchbowl par 3??? 

[Trevor]

2 olds:
17 at Yeamans Hall
16 at Augusta CC (not ANGC, next door)

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Some punchbowls are visible.  # 6 at The Creek as an example.

The "luck" aspect tends to be "good luck".

The structure of the green and surrounds acts as a self correcting feature.

I think punchbowls are the architects concession to the golfer. A bonus that rewards the golfer in his challenging journey

Pat

I was suggesting why archies don't like punchbowls - I like them, but usually only if they are proper punchers.  More or less that means the entire green gathers, there can be no let out to one or more sides - that is not a punchbowl.  It doesn't mean the hole isn't good, but its not a punchbowl.  Think about it, a punchbowl which leaks - NOOOOOOO.  I wish folks on this site could properly identify the key elements of classic holes if they are gonna use their namesakes going forward.  So many examples don't look like punchers to me.  Its not much different from a downhill Redan - ya, right.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Richard,

Definitely all of the UK ones I have referenced are on sand. Most of Sean's too, except perhaps for Temple.

Temple is on chalk, which if anything drains faster than sand.

Putting a layer of clay under greens to help retain water seems to have been relatively common back in the day. Royal Hague was built that way as late as the 1930s; one of the main reasons for the Frank Pont-led renovation project a few years ago was that sixty years of topdressing meant the clay layer was so far down it couldn't be broken up by greenkeeping machinery any more, and the green suffered as a result.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I know of examples of punchbowls (the 15th at Conwy, for instance) which were flattened out when green watering was introduced.

[Tim Gerrish]

Of all the CG, Raynor, Ross, Banks, Et al, punchbowls I have seen they all drain out to one side.  There are some architects that like punchbowls, however,most of them are dead! 

Maybe the non draining ones are in the UK?

[paul cowley]

For the record;

Ocean Creek (Love/Cowley) #4...a great natural PB on a drivable par 4.
Patriot (Love/Cowley) #1...par 4, a small PB as part of an earthen spur battery
Ricefields (Love/Cowley) #3...par 4, large semi blind PB (you can see some part of the flag)
Sanctuary Cove (Couples/Love Golf Design) #8...par 3, Raynor/CBM inspired.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was suggesting why archies don't like punchbowls - I like them, but usually only if they are proper punchers.  More or less that means the entire green gathers, there can be no let out to one or more sides - that is not a punchbowl.  It doesn't mean the hole isn't good, but its not a punchbowl.  Think about it, a punchbowl which leaks - NOOOOOOO.  I wish folks on this site could properly identify the key elements of classic holes if they are gonna use their namesakes going forward.  So many examples don't look like punchers to me.  Its not much different from a downhill Redan - ya, right.


Sean, I think it goes back to my three basic categories.
Pure
Hyrbid
Mongrel

The 16th at NGLA is a pure punchbowl.

But, I've seen some pretty good hybrids and a few decent mongrels

[Mike Tanner]

If I remember correctly, there's an interesting punchbowl green on the back nine (No. 13, I think)  at Belmont Golf Course in Richmond, Virginia. Formerly known as Hermitage Country Club, it was originally designed by Tillinghast in 1916 and renovated by Ross in 1927. Sam Snead won the PGA Championship there in 1949. I don't have a picture, but maybe someone in Richmond does.
 

[Kevin Jackson]

The 7th at Camargo Club is an Alps/Punchbowl combo.  The green is fronted by 2 bunkers that are around 12ft. below the fairway, then the left,back, and back right side create the "punchbowl".  The front right is open but falls slightly to the edge of the outside rough cut.  As Sean mentioned earlier about legit pb's and ones that have an opening for drainage, this hole is more of just an Alps to me since the green surrounds are cut to rough height and are only 3-4 ft. wide in a plan view.  Very few shots would ever funnel into the green because of this.  But nevertheless, people would call it a punchbowl green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin,

Fishers Island has a great Alps/Punchbowl combination.

I wonder how similar the two holes are.

What's the topography on the hole like at Camargo ?

At Fishers Island, the hole is on the water with the green jutting out into the water.

Depending upon the location of your tee shot, you sometimes feel like you're hitting out into the water, or at least over it in order to get to the green, which is massive.  But, it's still a very scary approach shot

[Tim Martin]

Kevin,

Fishers Island has a great Alps/Punchbowl combination.

I wonder how similar the two holes are.

What's the topography on the hole like at Camargo ?

At Fishers Island, the hole is on the water with the green jutting out into the water.

Depending upon the location of your tee shot, you sometimes feel like you're hitting out into the water, or at least over it in order to get to the green, which is massive.  But, it's still a very scary approach shot

Patrick -If the tee shot on 4 is on the right side of the fairway and you are employing a draw on the approach this has to be among the scariest shots in golf. Especially if it doesn`t hook.

[Kevin Jackson]

Patrick,

Its a straight hole.  Standing on the tee you are "looking" at the green.  The fairway has a slight right to left dogleg in it, with the elbow falling a bit to the inside of the corner (approx. 230 yds out).  Then there is a swale about 40 yds. long from about 120-80 yds. out.  The fairway ends 47 yds. from the center of green, but standing there you still can only see the back half of the green.  You need to be about 30 yds from the center of the green to see the fronting bunkers.  From the landing area you can usually see just the top 5-6 inches of the flagstick.  There is a large tree in the back center of the green that is used for alignment.

One thing that adds to the fun of the hole is the green itself.  There are 3 sections, front, middle, back.  The middle section is in a bowl within the punchbowl green (all while it slopes left to right for drainage).  It definitely adds to the anticipation walking up to the green.  It obviously makes the approach more precise based on pin position if you want birdie.

There are pictures if you search "camargo club".  I don't personally have pics to post and don't know how to repost ones on the site.