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Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2011, 07:15:12 AM »
    I'm not about to start defending Congo.  There are many things that make it a difficult place to play and watch a tournament.  BUT -  The more I watch this Open I think that this version of the course may be the best yet tried.  Sure it's a brute of a course but I do get a sense of rythum as I watch these guys play it.  I think there is a good variety of shots demanded of them and I think the guy playing the best has been easily identified.  As a spectator it's a tough place to get around, no doubt.  BUT - to their credit, look at the turnout by the fans.  40,000 or so.  I know the USGA has got to be happy with that and give those people credit for slogging around the place for limited views of the golf.  I was never a big fan of the 1990's mounding and bunkering but heck,  I think you have got to give credit where credit is due.   Even if it's only on a 10 or 15 year rotation it is a nice place for an Open and you know the USGA wamts tp get into the marlet as often as it can.   So until there is a better alternative in the D.C. area I say well done and let's have a good weekend.


Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2011, 07:19:45 AM »
Spent the day Friday at CCC. I went in with an open mind and was very impressed by the property. Far more elevation change than I contemplated and the water features are really interesting. The greens were slow by open standards and it appears that if you are in the right section the opportunity exist to putt without the standard open trepidation. I think it bodes well for McIroy if the greens remain this pace because a lack of conviction under pressureon the front at the Masters really set the stage for the total collapse later. I saw many putts that one would expect to roll of the green come to a stop above the hole. Holes that stood out to me 1,2,6,10, 15, 17, 18. I think they are finding 10 so challenging because the television compound sits atop the natural amphitheatre and as the ball drops below the towers the wind is no longer a help for distance control.

As far as the bunkering, the style seems incongruous with the nature of the property. I am certain theclub got what it wanted though because the fairway laterals were catching a reasonable number of shots.
It is a manly course to be sure. Certainly in the region I would rank it below BCC and it would struggle to rate in terms of interest further up I95. I would say that Olympia Fields is more interesting though I have not been there since 2003. Clearly the Blue is serving its intended purpose,that of a big strong championship course and if the greens were faster mcilroy would not be running away with it.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2011, 09:02:13 AM »
After attending in 1997 and being there the last two days, I like it a lot more now. The USGA set-up has improved significantly with shorter rough, a first and second cut. I like the bent grass greens, the reversal of the current tenth hole, and the current 18th hole. I'm not crazy about some of the mounding and the water and retaining wall around the sixth green didn't seem to fit with the rest of the course.

Overall, it's not Shinnecock Hills or Pebble Beach but preferable to Torrey Pines and every bit as interesting as Southern Hills or Olympia Fields for a spectator.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2011, 08:31:31 PM »
Regarding the first tee,my point is that there is enough room for crowd flow around it and by 10 for that matter ,although it looks tight.Compared to how jammed up the gallery gets at Colonial around the club house,this works much better.I also thought it was a decent course to see golf on. sure was easier to follow the action than some other courses I have seen majors on such as Southern Hills or Muirfield.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2011, 12:42:59 PM »

I am not a fan of Congressional.

Lester

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2011, 12:50:30 PM »
The greens looked really beat up on TV on Sunday.  From those who were there, how bad did they look / play, and is anyone concerned if they're going ot hold up through the summer?  I'd be interested in a report-back from someone this Fall to see how they fared.  


Sorry forgot to answer the thread question: Congo's clubhouse makes my top-five-I'd-like-to-explore list.  The course itself would fall in the bottom 25% of Open courses. 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 12:52:03 PM by Matt MacIver »

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2011, 12:57:10 PM »
Matt: I can tell you that on Tuesday the greens looked really stressed and I was wondering if they were going to make it through the weekend - we had some overnight storms and I have to believe they gave them some water or they would've had dirt like they did for the '95 Senior Open. We had a good soaking rain last night/this morning and I think they should recover although temps are supposed to go way up by Wednesday.

Jim Eder

Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2011, 01:21:27 PM »
Jerry,

Some of the greens and fringes looked pretty chewed up in places on TV. Not a lot of grass and a fair amount of soil showing. How was it in person?  I hope the greens survive for the club.

Steve Goodwin

Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2011, 02:16:48 PM »
After being at CCC all week, I packed it in and watched the Sunday round on TV.  Too hard to see the leaders when the crowds start concentrating around them, and as has been noted the back nine is a tough walk -- hilly, lots of crossing, not that many places to get a good view.   Best way to see golf on the back nine is from the grandstands.  One little bonus of having to wait at the crossing on No. 18 on Friday -- I saw a player named Gonzales hit a wicked shank on his approach to 18.  It was a full shot, and a full shank.  Some guy waiting beside me said, "He just gave us ordinary golfers something to smile about."  Then, proving he wasn't ordinary, Gonzales managed to make a bogey.

Generally, though the scoring went down, the golf got less interesting IMHO as week went on.  With the soft greens, the green light was on, and the kind of caution that I noted in an earlier post, with players showing respect for the course, using different clubs off the tees to stay out of the rough, varying the kinds of approach shots and pitches -- all that went by the boards.  They obviously felt free to attack.  The penalty just wasnt there for a missed fairway.   Prime example -- McIlroy on No. 11 on Saturday.  He pulled the tee shot into the left rough but his approach went straight over the flagstick . . . and stopped.  Drained it for birdie.  Normal Open conditions, that approach would have been way past the hole. 

Could it have been avoided?  Could the Setup Wizard have done things differently to insure a firmer surface?  I don't know enough about agronomy to have an informed opinion, but I have to say that Davis seemed to tempt the fates by rebuilding the greens.  During the hot spell before the Open, they had to be babied, and they were a lot more saturated coming into the week that was ideal.  Then the rains started to fall and they never had a chance to dry out.   Would Davis have done anything different with mature greens?  He's said he wouldn't, but still.   This whole Open setup scenario has reached the point where micromanagement is SOP, and that's asking for trouble.

Re the golf course design:  the routing, which mostly dates back to RTJ, has a nice rhythm (I've played CCC a couple times and this was my impression as a player as well as observer of the Open).   Rees mostly stuck with the routing in the major overhaul back in the 1990's, and the changes since then -- notably the new 10th -- have been improvements.   It's a course that gives you a few breaks on the front side and squeezes you hard on the back.   Some of the bunkers are a lot deeper than they look on TV!

But there is a sameness to many of holes.  In part this is because the original tees and greens were sited on high ground and have remained there; thus, on several holes, you hit from an elevated tee to a fairway below you, then play the approach uphill.  One thing that Rees Jones did was lower a bunch of greens to reduce the amount of blindness on the approach shots, and shape the fronts to provide more visibility.

One result of this was that the lower greens ended up in bowl-like setting, lower than their surrounds.   You see that over and over at CCC -- the green surface, falling off at the edges, and then the ground slopes up again into the mounds that encircle the greens.  It is not only repetitious but looks awkward and disjointed.   As far as playability is concerned, this kind of green complex isn't too hard on the player who misses by a little -- his ball is just off the green and he has a straightforward, slightly uphill chip/pitch.   Miss by a lot, though, and now the ball is on the side of a mound, a downhill lie, and a far more difficult shot.   

Obviously, not all the green complexes fit that description -- the 6th, 10th, 16th, and 18th come to mind as exceptions.   It's one reason why those holes as among the most memorable.

The greens themselves, as many have pointed out, are clearly segmented -- again, a design that challenges the better player but tends to penalize the rest of us.   Not much subtlety in the way these transverse ridges are incorporated into the greens.  Most of them standout clearly, even on TV -- and that's saying something, since TV tends to flatten greens.   They started to remind me of old mattresses where you could clearly see the troughs where people had slept for years -- and the ridge in between.

Even with all of the above, I end up thinking that Congressional is a pretty good modern course.  It's tough for members, and with less rain and firmer greens I think it would have shown itself as tough Open venue, too.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2011, 03:46:44 PM »
Steve,

It is my understanding that the greens had over months to mature.  If that is true, they should have been put in tournament condition last fall, including traffic and other stress.  The set-up was written off on tv as recent rain, but in truth, they waited too long to take the greens down and then were up against the heat.  I have that on pretty reliable sources so IMO the USGA gets the blame on this one.

Lester 

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2011, 09:20:30 PM »
Steve,

It is my understanding that the greens had over months to mature.  If that is true, they should have been put in tournament condition last fall, including traffic and other stress.  The set-up was written off on tv as recent rain, but in truth, they waited too long to take the greens down and then were up against the heat.  I have that on pretty reliable sources so IMO the USGA gets the blame on this one.

Lester  

Lester,  I have no agenda in asking this, but is it possible for the club to bring the greens down (cut them closer) as a test case, say, in maybe early September the year before the championship after the weather gets a little cooler and then bring them back up to get the course through the winter, and then cut them again closer in the spring?  I can run a clubhouse operation, I don't know the agronomic aspect as well as I would like.

Frankly, this was fun to watch-it was a special 4 days because of the storyline.  I'm not sure why, even though Rory blew the field away, it was still fun to watch-it seemed to me more fun to watch, moreso than, say, Pebble 11 years ago when TW did the same thing.  I will say, even though Rory had a big lead, it was fun watching the rest of the field make birdies also-this was more entertaining than in 2000 or in many of Tiger's major wins where he seems like the only guy on the course who is able to make birdies.  

Back to the architecture.  Does anyone think the setup was too fair, too easy?  Would there have been a way, say, a week out, to make any last-minute changes?  I imagine maybe just tuck hole locations, but again, then, it can appear gimicky.  

In the end, the course was better than I remember.  When I worked there, I did tell members I preferred BB to CCC, but I articulated why.  The terrain is better than I remember also, and, if you had a good group of friends, you could have an enjoyable time playing the course on a regular basis.  
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 09:31:59 PM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2011, 09:53:49 PM »

 

Caddied at Congressional while in college at U of Md  and remember it as being a long slog and really hot and humid. I got to play there a little and it was fun, the current 18th is an awesome hole. The course plays a lot like Winged Foot, lots of long hard par fours, yet the ball never runs a lot , and it's very aerial.    good for the young bombers.....


I think the composite course is a little disjointed, it doesn't flow , maybe Lester can add to this, as I think he might agree.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2011, 02:19:16 PM »
Doug,

Yes the greens can be "battle hardened" in the fall and conditioned agressively in the cooler months.  Then they can be left at a winter height that the super is confident with and groomed more agressively again in the spring.  From my sources, the greens were left up around .120 until late spring and then ultimately taken down to a reported .080.  Couple that "take down" with the heat spell and you have the results you saw at the Open.  Unfortunate but certainly avoidable.

Lester

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2011, 03:15:11 PM »
Archie: They didn't use the composite course - it was the 18 of the Blue.  I am a little confused by the belief that somehow the USGA is at fault with respect to the greens when the greens at Ridgewood after last year's Barclays had to be closed for weeks after the tournament because they were cut down so low and they were certainly mature. I really think you have to be there and see how far these guys hit the ball to understand how extreme you would have to make the conditions in order to protect par.   

Carl Rogers

Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2011, 02:13:41 PM »
From what I could observe from the tube, the green reading and short range putting seemed to be far too easy for these players.

That plays into Rory's ease and comfort of fast play on the greens.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who loves Congressional? Actually, who even likes it?
« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2011, 05:19:40 PM »

I am not a fan of Congressional.

Lester

Lester neither am I.  I saw the last Open at Congo and the course didn't strike me as special.  The comparsion to Oakland Hills isn't apt as OHCC has SUPERIOR GREENS to Congo.  This puts the course in a totally different class - world top 100 class.  No way I could say the same for Congo.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

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