[Duncan Cheslett]

What amazed me too, while studying Google Earth, was just how many golf courses there are in the northern suburbs of Leeds.

I counted 11 courses in an area roughly 10 miles x 5 miles...

[Andrew Mitchell]

Perhaps we should send Andrew Mitchell in to the woods...  

Looking at the Birds Eye on Bings maps, the larger windows in the pub/restaurant building you mention all face away from the road, out to where the golf course would have been. So I think you are probably right and it certainly looks to have the feel of a clubhouse of that era:

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=sz7w0dgw4576&lvl=19.172546558964054&dir=173.25229263010917&sty=b&eo=0&where1=Leeds%2C%20Leeds&q=leeds&form=LMLTCC

Cheers,

James

Thanks James 

Actually I'm meeting up with Nick Leefe in the next couple of weeks so I'll ask him what he knows re the old Moor Allerton.

I might even have a root around in the undergrowth of North Leeds whilst on my way over 

[Neil_Crafter]

Andrew
I have already asked Nick to look into Moor Allerton. I'll post if he advises me of anything further.
Good luck in the undergrowth!

I also contacted the restaurant that occupy the building we think is the old clubhouse and they have confirmed that is their understanding too.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Moor Allerton and the four holes at Sand Moor only disappeared around 40 years ago... There must be plenty of people that played / knew these courses pre- the changes... Current members especially...

I'm just interested to find out how good those Sand Moor holes were (they HAVE to be better than the replacements!) and where Moor Allerton fitted in to the equation? e.g. Was it always clear Sand Moor was a level below Alwoodley and Moortown and was Moor Allerton on equal standing with Sand Moor, better or not quite as good?

Also anything about the nature of the course... And were there any outstanding holes...

Thanks,
Ally

[Christoph Meister]

From Ordnance survey maps

Clubhouse of Moor Allerton in 1954 and 1969. There is little doubt that the building shown in the 1969 map is the same building that is there today. The question that springs to mind is that the building shown in 1954 appears entirely different.

Hello Neil,

according to a little brochure I have seen the new clubhouse was offcially opened on April 27th, 1958. That fits in with the two ordnance survey maps you are referring to. Unfortunately no course layout plan in the brochure, but a short summary of the club history mentionning MacKenzie..
Greetings
Christoph

[Christoph Meister]

Even though I do not have a course layout plan of Moor Allerton's old course I happen to have a score card which probably just dates from around 1958 as the Golfer's Handbook 1958 gives the course length at Moor Allerton with 6.326 yds and S.S.S. 71.

I find it very unusual both loops of nine holes are starting with par 3 holes, but maybe this is not the original sequence of holes from 1923...

Greetings

Christoph

[Ally Mcintosh]

Great stuff Christoph!

110 acres was maybe quite tight given the shape of the parcel of land they had...

That article says the course was designed and layed out by Major MacKenzie... Was that not his brother Charles?

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks for posting the brochure extract and course card Christoph.

Ally
Major Mackenzie was the typical designation for Charles - even though Dr Mac also ended WW1 with the rank of Major. I simply think this is an error, there is little doubt Alister designed Moor Allerton.

[Neil_Crafter]

Andrew - did you happen to get over to Leeds?

[Christoph Meister]

Great stuff Christoph!

110 acres was maybe quite tight given the shape of the parcel of land they had...

That article says the course was designed and layed out by Major MacKenzie... Was that not his brother Charles?

Ally,

well spotted - it allways help reading articles accurately! - I must have missed the Major even though I read that text several times...

With reference to the following quotes from John Scarth article in "Through The Green", the magazine of the Britisch Golf Collectors Society, published in the December 2004 edition and considering Neil Crafters remark that there is little doubt the course was designed by Alister I could well imagine Charles Mackenzie was involved in the construction of Moor Allentown GC as he did quite some work during that time in the Leeds area - but maybe you want to read yourself:

“.....This coincided with the break up of the loose
partnership in golf course design that had existed
between Alister, Harry Colt and Hugh Alison and
in July 1923 the two brothers formerly merged
their design and construction interests through the
dissolution of CA Mackenzie & Company, and the
formation of the British Golf Course Construction
Company. The two Mackenzie brothers and their
respective wives became directors....“

“....Charles had meanwhile been appointed a
director of the newly-opened Sand Moor Golf Club
in North Leeds. Also, in late 1928, he was appointed
Chairman of the Greens for the committee
organising the Ryder Cup over the Moortown
Golf Club’s course (next door to Sand Moor) in the
spring of 1929.....“

“Charles Atkinson Mackenzie is credited with
designing or constructing the following courses:

…South Leeds 1923 Construction
Temple Newsham Municipal, Leeds - 1923 Construction…..
Sand Moor, Leeds - 1924 Construction….
…Scarcroft, Yorkshire - 1937 ?Design and Construction?”

Neil, what is your opinion on this - Do you think it is possible Charles was the constructor resp. supervising
the construction?

[Neil_Crafter]

Christoph
Dr Mackenzie listed the course in his 1923 brochure put out when he left the partnership with Colt and Alison. Additionally he wrote about in The Growth of Golf in Leeds article in Golfing, also from 1923. I don't think there is any doubt he designed the course. Whether Charles and their British Golf Course Construction Co built the course I have no information, but in the brochure Moor Allerton was listed with an asterix that indicated that the course was built by an experienced foreman under the direction of the architect. Was this the BGCCCo? Could have been Franks Harris or Carters, as we have evidence that both these constructors built Mac's work.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

If we're into spotting things, surely 'the two brothers formerly merged' should be 'the two brothers formally merged.'

Just the old pedant in me.

[Christoph Meister]

If we're into spotting things, surely 'the two brothers formerly merged' should be 'the two brothers formally merged.'

Just the old pedant in me.

Mark, thank you for your message and yes you are right! - With your help I will hopefully master your language one day. Never mind it was the Australian author of the article on C.A. Mackenzie who made the mistake in the first place....

Cheers

Christoph

[Christoph Meister]

Christoph
Dr Mackenzie listed the course in his 1923 brochure put out when he left the partnership with Colt and Alison. Additionally he wrote about in The Growth of Golf in Leeds article in Golfing, also from 1923. I don't think there is any doubt he designed the course. Whether Charles and their British Golf Course Construction Co built the course I have no information, but in the brochure Moor Allerton was listed with an asterix that indicated that the course was built by an experienced foreman under the direction of the architect. Was this the BGCCCo? Could have been Franks Harris or Carters, as we have evidence that both these constructors built Mac's work.

Hi Neil,

I just got hold of a copy of "A History of Moor Allerton Golf Club 1923-2001" by Ted Hyman, 2nd Edition, 2001

In the book there is an article from the Yorkshire Evening Post 1931 titled Moor Allerton stating "....that the late Dr. Alister Mackenzie designed the course, Major Charles Mackenzie constructed it, and both have allowed their genius full sway, and have created a links that will astonish vistiors when they go to play there."

The course was opened officially with 12 holes in play on March 27th, 1923. By mid-1923 two further holes had been added.

"Before the end of 1927 the Committee recommended that approximately 25 acres of land, constituting the original 14th, 15th, 16th, and 17th holes (when the extra 4 holes where added is never noted) should be sold off in lots, and that alternative land on offer should be purchased for GBP 5,000, so as to maintain 18 holes."

There are no course layout plans or scorecards in the club history book, but descriptions of several of the holes on the old course. According to the previous article from 1931 the course had 18 holes by then. Some  holes must have been changed between 1931 and the 1950s/1960s - I am still digging on that one.

The new course in play today was opened 1970 when Peter Alliss started working as club professional at Moor Allerton - that might wexplain why he did some changes at the course during the 1970s.

Hope you find all this information interesting,

Cheers

Christoph

[Christoph Meister]

Neil,

Indeed, the 54 clubhouse is certainly a totally different building. The position of the buldings across the road in the 2 map extracts confirms it. Surprising that some time between 54 and 69 they build a new clubhouse, only to move to a totally new site in 1971?

Unless they had no thought of moving at the time the clubhouse was redeveloped.

Gentlemen,

There is an interesting comment on the clubhouse in the previously mentionned Moor Allerton club history book from 2001, which itself is a quote from "The Thread is strong" by Bernhard Lyons:


"..it had not occured to me, or to the membership, at the time the new clubhouse was being built, that the environmental change had enhanced astronomically its land value as a potential housing estate"

Christoph

[Adam Lawrence]

Christoph
Dr Mackenzie listed the course in his 1923 brochure put out when he left the partnership with Colt and Alison. Additionally he wrote about in The Growth of Golf in Leeds article in Golfing, also from 1923. I don't think there is any doubt he designed the course. Whether Charles and their British Golf Course Construction Co built the course I have no information, but in the brochure Moor Allerton was listed with an asterix that indicated that the course was built by an experienced foreman under the direction of the architect. Was this the BGCCCo? Could have been Franks Harris or Carters, as we have evidence that both these constructors built Mac's work.

Hi Neil,

I just got hold of a copy of "A History of Moor Allerton Golf Club 1923-2001" by Ted Hyman, 2nd Edition, 2001

In the book there is an article from the Yorkshire Evening Post 1931 titled Moor Allerton stating "....that the late Dr. Alister Mackenzie designed the course, Major Charles Mackenzie constructed it, and both have allowed their genius full sway, and have created a links that will astonish vistiors when they go to play there."

Something is slightly amiss with this, as Dr Mac didn't die till 1934, and therefore shouldn't have been described as 'the late...' in an article published in 1931.

[Christoph Meister]

Christoph
Dr Mackenzie listed the course in his 1923 brochure put out when he left the partnership with Colt and Alison. Additionally he wrote about in The Growth of Golf in Leeds article in Golfing, also from 1923. I don't think there is any doubt he designed the course. Whether Charles and their British Golf Course Construction Co built the course I have no information, but in the brochure Moor Allerton was listed with an asterix that indicated that the course was built by an experienced foreman under the direction of the architect. Was this the BGCCCo? Could have been Franks Harris or Carters, as we have evidence that both these constructors built Mac's work.

Hi Neil,

I just got hold of a copy of "A History of Moor Allerton Golf Club 1923-2001" by Ted Hyman, 2nd Edition, 2001

In the book there is an article from the Yorkshire Evening Post 1931 titled Moor Allerton stating "....that the late Dr. Alister Mackenzie designed the course, Major Charles Mackenzie constructed it, and both have allowed their genius full sway, and have created a links that will astonish vistiors when they go to play there."

Something is slightly amiss with this, as Dr Mac didn't die till 1934, and therefore shouldn't have been described as 'the late...' in an article published in 1931.

Adam

Good point - I have checked that again, it really says "late" - Interestingly there is no exact date given for the Yorkshire Evening News article in the club history book, so maybe they got it wrong and the article is from 1934 (after January 6th) or even later..

Christoph

[Christoph Meister]

Here comes the "late" course layout from Moor Allerton GC as of 1970. I took it from the club history book, added the hole numbers and compared it to my previously posted scorecard:



Here I tried to draw the former course boundaries onto a google earth aerial:



With respect to the history of the course there is one interesting note from the minutes of the club:

"Late in 1925 the famous James Braid (5 times winner of the British Open) was engaged to view and report on the course at a cost of
GBP 16.2S.0d and his scheme for alterations was immediately approved and put in hand."

Christoph

[Tom MacWood]

Neil
Do you think AM would have been involved with the expansion in 1927?

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks for the info from the club history Christoph. Thanks for the map and the overlay of the course boundaries over Google earth.
Wonder why Braid was called in in 1925?

Tom, I really don't know. perhaps Braid did the 1927 changes?

[Niall C]

Neil

Think of Pollok and Erskine, two examples where Braid and MacKenzie were brought in in succeeding years. It wasn't that unusual for clubs to do that and as for Braid he was fairly ubiquitious as he seemed to get everywhere. I've read that Braid suppossedly didn't like travel. I can only think that he got pissed off with it decades of playing tournaments, exhibitions and laying out courses all round the country.

Niall

[Duncan Cheslett]

This has long puzzled me, too.

I keep reading that James Braid hated travelling, yet he seems to have either designed or advised on modifications to every other golf course in the UK over a thirty-odd year period!

Not to mention playing in countless tournaments and winning a fair proportion of them...

He doesn't seem to have slowed down in old age either; he was well into his sixties when he remodelled a couple of holes at my place. So where does this idea of him 'hating travelling' come from?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

According to Cornish and Whitten Braid feared the ocean and dreaded travel by car. But there's no mention of rail travel, so perhaps he let the train take the strain.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Bramall Park was a MacKenzie course at which Braid was later called in to make alterations (to make the greens easier if memory serves me correctly).

[Ally Mcintosh]

Bramall Park was a MacKenzie course at which Braid was later called in to make alterations (to make the greens easier if memory serves me correctly).

Ditto Blairgowrie where Braid was called in within 5 years of MacKenzie's 18 opening...

I think there's no doubt that James Braid was considered the pre-eminent architect in Britain around this time... He was ubiquitous in much the same way that Donald Ross was in the States pre-WWII and Robert Trent Jones was post-WWII...

At least that's my impression...

Again, we can question how much time he spent on his designs / construction post the initial routing...

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