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Padraig Dooley

Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« on: June 14, 2011, 04:59:13 PM »
What would you say is an ideal course primarily aimed at beginners but with potential to keep a good golfer interested as well?

9 holes for speed of play?

Mainly par 3's, the beginner isn't too taxed and the the good player can go back if required?

What examples are there of similar courses?

There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Tony_Muldoon

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2011, 05:24:43 PM »
Padraig for my first year I played at Hobbs Cross 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/place?hl=en&xhr=t&cp=12&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1360&bih=906&wrapid=tljp1308085812825018&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=hobbs+cross+golf&fb=1&gl=uk&hq=hobbs+cross+golf&cid=2616419212075784384&dtab=2&ei=Pc73TaD5IonPhAedlZGeDA&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQqgUwAQ

The long 9, had one par 5 and 2 par 3's.   The rough was about 1.5 " and the greens were tricky.  one par 4 was 440 yards. Pars are still an achievement but looking for balls was at a minimum. The second 9 was all 3's 115 to 184 yards.  We preferred to play the long 9 twice.

Most summers I go back most summers when I can and still really enjoy the course.  We were lucky to find it.
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

Kalen Braley

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2011, 05:38:26 PM »
The short course at Tony Lema in San Leandro.

4 - short par 4's
5 - short-to-mid-range par 3s. 

Some trouble to be found, some water on the course, some ok bunkering.  A good introduction to a big boy course without hammering on the noobies, and not being a complete snooze fest to a decent player.

Tom_Doak

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2011, 05:52:25 PM »
To me, the ideal course for the beginner is just a short enough course that they aren't intimidated by the length -- say, 3000 yards for nine holes, with a second set of tees at 2500 yards.

I don't think having a bunch of par-3's is really that attractive to the beginner group.  They want to learn the thrill of hitting the driver, like everyone else.  You just don't want them to have too far to go when they top two shots in a row.

The main thing for a beginner is to have a course with almost no bunkers.  Beginners have no idea what to do out of the sand, and they will be hopeless at it until they get a clue about making consistent contact.  So, a course with moundy hazards around the greens instead of sand serves them better, not to mention it's less expensive to maintain.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2011, 06:25:15 PM »
Padraig: normally I'd say that the answer to this question -- as to ALL gca-related questions -- is The Old Course.  And in fact that might not be a bad answer. But I think that if you ever came across a flat piece of land with no features, I'd fill that site with a whole bunch of shortish Par 4s and with very big greens and with only 2 par 3s and two Par 5s and just enough bunkers (more around the green than on the fairways, but on the fairways too) to penalize the beginner every few holes or so. Yes - I said 'penalize' him.  I dare say I'm a lot closer in years to being a 'beginner' than most of you here and so I can still remember the feelings.  And to borrow/paraphrase an old saying: "The rabbit knows that he's not a tiger, but he doesn't want the architect to TREAT him like one".
Beginning golfers (those who have any 'golfer' in him/her) are not made of glass, and they want to learn to play the game PROPERLY, right from the start.

Peter

Steve Lang

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2011, 07:21:20 PM »
 8) Par 3 definitely..
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mark Johnson

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2011, 08:02:24 PM »
The other thing about par 3 courses is that they tend to have a ton of waiting around since only one group can play a hole at a time.  Even if it isnt slower than a mixed par course, it appears much slower and will turn off new golfers.

jeffwarne

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2011, 08:28:24 PM »
A golf course where they can find their ball, has interesting greens, good topography yet highly walkable

Augusta CC worked for me.

When I think of it it's still just about my favorite course (despite multiple renovations)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Duncan Cheslett

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2011, 01:44:51 AM »
Padraig for my first year I played at Hobbs Cross 


I'm lucky enough to have a similar place near me;

http://www.adlingtongolfcentre.com/

The 'Graduate' 9 hole par 3 course has holes up to 250 yds long - meaning the whole bag is utilised. It feels like a 'proper' golf course and to my mind is the perfect introduction for the beginner.

It still has great appeal to the regular player, though. I had a round there last night while my young son was having his weekly group lesson on the shorter 'Academy' course, also designed by Hawtrees.

Doug Siebert

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2011, 03:17:16 AM »
Half par 3s and half par 4s.  No 5s, beginners can't string together enough decent shots for a hole that long.  I agree with Tom about the lack of bunkers, one thing I'd add to what he said is that beginners will probably not be very good about raking them so not only do they have to hit a shot they have no clue how to hit, they'll have to do it out of a footprint half the time!

You want to minimize the amount of time they'll spend looking for balls, so no unmaintained areas, and the only water should be maybe one small pond to carry on one of the par 4s (by "small" I'm talking like a 50 yard carry) and maybe one par 3 with a water carry front and left but which allows a bailout to the right for those who can't make the shot or slice it (sorry lefties!)  A little creek meandering through the property can be fun, but hopefully it can be limited to running alongside fairways or crossing in front of a green, rather than crossing in the middle of a fairway.  OB is fine - the course has to have edges somewhere - but give it lots of room if there are houses or roads on the OB, and put up fences on all the property lines so people aren't encouraged to go off the reservation to get back their xxx outs :)

There should be few trees.  Single rows of tees to separate fairways (so you know when you're hitting out of another fairway) are fine, but no thick stands.  Any doglegs should be gentle, a 90* dogleg won't make sense to them, they'll aim at the green if they can see it or know where it is!  The fairway starts right off the teebox, if you top it 10 yards off the tee you shouldn't have to hit out of rough, even nice friendly rough that's kept down to 2" or less.

Mounds would make some good greenside hazards but I'd not go crazy with them and definitely avoid having them in the front 1/4 of the green since beginners will often be approaching from some weird angles and they don't need the added frustration of a mound rejecting their ball trying to roll onto the green.  I don't think the greens should be huge, beginners aren't much better at long putts than they are with chips, so you don't really want to give them a lot of 60+ foot putts that they'll probably end up four putting.  Plus big greens would require higher greens fees, and the course needs to be inexpensive.

Basically the way I look at it, a beginner course is to get players to the point where they can go round nine holes without any scores in the double digits and maybe make one bogey a round.  Once they're at that point they're ready for an easy "real" course and would be able to get their ball around well enough that they wouldn't hold up play.

Maybe I'm dreaming, but having some hours where only walkers are allowed (with free trolley rental) might encourage people to walk.  If they are riding from day one of playing, they are probably cartballers forever.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 03:20:55 AM by Doug Siebert »
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2011, 04:28:04 AM »
A golf course where they can find their ball, has interesting greens, good topography yet highly walkable

Augusta CC worked for me.

When I think of it it's still just about my favorite course (despite multiple renovations)

Jeff,

I always thought Gweedore was the most suitable courses you could find for a beginner. There's a little more rough than there used be(previously there was none thanks to the sheep), no drains or ponds, fairways 100s of yds wide, hard with plenty of run, shallow bunkers and slow open greens.

Would you agree after playing it recently?

Mark_Rowlinson

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2011, 06:23:44 AM »
We have quite a number of simple pay-and-play courses in our area aimed at beginners and occasional players. Almost universally the greens are slow, pitch marks go unrepaired, bunkers are not raked properly, there is often penal, ball-swallowing rough in those places where beginners go and nobody else, ditches and streams are rarely cleaned out resulting in lost balls, teeing grounds are poorly prepared or even matting even in summer. Worst, they are usually compact layouts which means that a player out of position is going to interfere with the play of others, quite possibly dangerously. But at a green fee of between £10 and £20 they are going to attract beginners who do not want to part with £50 or £60 for a round at a members' club.

Jud_T

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2011, 06:58:06 AM »
My old club had a 3-hole practice course.  Short 4, short 3 and long 4.  Really perfect to take the kids/beginners out on or to warm up/settle a match...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jason Topp

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2011, 07:23:52 AM »
This course is packed with beginners, kids, and seniors all season.  Its practice areas are full of more seasoned golfers.

http://www.threeriversparks.org/parks/glen-lake-golf.aspx

Great range with a huge teeing area.  Giant practice green big enough to accomodate big lesson groups and a huge number of individuals at other times.  The course is a fun par 31 with the driver an option for pretty much everyone on the four par fours.  The greens are kept slow but roll nicely.

It is a terrific use of a tight piece of county land.  Even though I have a range that I can use for free 15 minutes away, I have a punch card for this range that I use when my time is tight.

I need to buy a logoed hat for my next GCA event.

paul cowley

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2011, 07:32:58 AM »
I would add to the above...no forced water carries immediately fronting a tee...ie ditch, small pond etc...as they become psycological top shot magnets for beginners.

For this reason we almost never have a fronting forced carry from any of our forward tees.

Now top shot bunkers are a horse of a different color!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Doug Siebert

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2011, 02:16:12 AM »
I disagree Paul.  I noted in my post that I'd have one such hole with about a 50 yard carry because I think beginners appreciate the sense of accomplishment.  You could always have second tee on the other side for those afraid of it or with a local rule allowing them to hit their next shot from that teebox.
 
When I first started out I played a little nine hole that had a pond that required about a 120 yard carry.  I would kind of aim off to the side a bit rather than trying to carry it all the way over but I remember when I came back the next year and was able to consistently get over it I was pretty proud of myself.

I think a beginner's course should not be too hard on new golfers, but if you make it so bland and risk-free that they are never tested at all, they will be in for quite a rude awakening when they venture onto their first real course.  They need to get a taste of the sort of thing that the game of golf will challenge them with.  You don't want them to decide the game is too difficult and quite before they begin to improve, but you also don't want to bore them to death.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Michael Goldstein

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2011, 02:31:59 AM »
It's right down in NZ but I vote for Hanmer Springs

 http://www.hanmerspringsgolf.co.nz/course-information.html

1)  5000m (5500 yards). Par 68.  One par 5, Five par 3s. And an easy walk.
2)  Small greens mean that beginners can practice chipping, pitching and generally a variety of short game shots (as opposed to The Old Course which is all putting)
3)  Course is at altitude, has plenty of roll, lots of short fours and a beginner can roll it up to any green meaning that almost anyone can make the occasional par/bogey out there;
4)  There are a couple of very short carries from the tee. As Doug says the accomplishment brings a smile to any beginners face. If they can't carry - drop another ball down and then move onto the next hole. 
5)  It's cheap!!! NZ$60 for a junior membership, $350 for full membership.  $20/25 green fee.
6)  It continues to challenge players irrespective of your handicap so you can track progress without getting bored and having to move to a bigger course.
(7) - And of course are great natural hot pools next door for after the round!!!

 
@Pure_Golf

Ted Cahill

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2011, 10:11:00 PM »
I grew up on Sinnissippi Golf Course in Rockford, IL. Nine hole, par 35, 3200 yds Tom Bendelow parkland muni. Not a single bunker or water hazard on the course- yet no pushover (trees and plenty of elevation change). I'd strap on my golf bag and ride my bike to the course often in the summer. When visiting family, I always make an effort to get a round in. Greens fees are 13 dollars.  Wish we had courses like this in CA.
“Bandon Dunes is like Chamonix for skiers or the
North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is
where those who really care end up.”

jeffwarne

Re: Ideal Golf Course for a beginner?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2011, 10:26:42 PM »
A golf course where they can find their ball, has interesting greens, good topography yet highly walkable

Augusta CC worked for me.

When I think of it it's still just about my favorite course (despite multiple renovations)

Jeff,

I always thought Gweedore was the most suitable courses you could find for a beginner. There's a little more rough than there used be(previously there was none thanks to the sheep), no drains or ponds, fairways 100s of yds wide, hard with plenty of run, shallow bunkers and slow open greens.

Would you agree after playing it recently?

Donal,
The world needs more Gweedores.
...but not just for beginners.
One man's beginner course is another man's creative playground
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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