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Keith OHalloran

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The best set of par 4's?
« on: June 09, 2011, 09:12:48 PM »
It was said on another thread that RCCC has the best set of par 4's even better than TOC. I have never been there, so I don't know. For those that have been there, can you argue this? Does it have the best set of par 4's? Why?

Mac Plumart

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2011, 09:49:44 PM »
I haven't played there either (yet!!), but The Old Course's are pretty sweet.  You can't sleep on The National Golf Links of America either.  Freakin' Sand Hills, Shinnecock.  Man...how can you pick the "best" set of par 4's?  Too many per course.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sean Leary

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2011, 10:05:48 PM »
Apart from the usual suspects of top 25 courses, I think Chambers Bay set is up there with any I have seen.

Bill_McBride

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2011, 10:06:57 PM »
A balanced and varied set of challenging par 4's is what I enjoy most at Pacific Dunes.

#1 - great starter, short but big number possible
#2 - plays much harder than it looks, mid length up hill, "Shoe" bunker*
#4 - long one along the cliff, short down wind, a beast upwind, see #13 for the complement
#6 - one of the best short par 4's on the planet
#7 - one of the best very long par 4's, no run up possible, reminds one of #13 TOC
#8 - outstanding, maybe the best, Redan slope right, left pins are treacherous, mid length
#9 - two greens, my least favorite of the lot but an exciting blind tee shot
#13 - see #4 in opposite direction
#16 - great short par 4 with fairway moguls and a devilish green

Nine par 4's, every one completely different and each unique in its own way.  3 short, 3 long, 3 in between.

That's what first floated my boat, blew my skirt up at Pacific Dunes.  And it's why comparisons with Pebble Beach are fruitless, Pebble has three great par 4's - 8, 9, 10 - while Pacific Dunes has the nine listed.

(* BTW, it was great to see Shoe still manning the podium at the main clubhouse.  He exemplifies the great service the resort is rightfuly famous for.   It was great to catch up after a several year absence.)

Scott Warren

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2011, 10:07:36 PM »
No course I have played comes within a bull's roar of Pine Valley's par fours, either for sheer quality or for variety of shot requirements, length, shape and land.

Keith OHalloran

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2011, 10:10:04 PM »
Shivas,
Thanks for the response. In regard the the set at The National, while 3 clearly stands out, I also love 16 and 17, of course, now that 5 is a par 4, it is a pretty great hole. (and like you said about RCCC the rest ain't bad either) if the par 4's are that outstanding at RCCC, I certainly hope to get a chance to see them one day!

Matthew Sander

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2011, 10:11:07 PM »
Sean,

I'll second your mention of Chambers. I don't have the depth of experience to draw from as many here on GCA, but Chambers has several excellent long brutes (7, 14, etc...) and a couple of outstanding shorties (10 and 12). They all play so differently and ask for different shots and decisions...

Mac Plumart

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2011, 10:12:29 PM »
No course I have played comes within a bull's roar of Pine Valley's par fours, either for sheer quality or for variety of shot requirements, length, shape and land.

First off, "a bulls roar"?   ??? :) ???

Secondly, any one favorite there Scott and/or any specific feelings the holes conjured up?

Thanks.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Andy Troeger

Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2011, 10:18:08 PM »
I'm with Scott here--Pine Valley in a romp. AMAZING variety from the shortish ones like #2 and #8 to the really tough #13 and 18. No two are even remotely alike and save perhaps the 12th (which is just good), every other one is great individually and as a set.

Rock Creek might be as good as anything else I've seen though. Pac Dunes has good variety as Bill mentioned and I'll mention The Golf Club in Ohio as having some really good ones too (#2, 5, 6, 13, and 18 being a nice start!). Chambers Bay is a good call too.

Wade Schueneman

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2011, 10:32:01 PM »
What about Lahinch?

1 - Tremendous opener

3 - WORLD CLASS

6 - WORLD CLASS (and one of a kind)

7 - a fun and beautiful hole

9 - WORLD CLASS (and again perhaps one of a kind)

10 - an excelent, though difficult par 4

13 - WORLD CLASS SHORT PAR 4

14 - a great hole

15 - some people do not care for 15, but I really like it

17 - another excellent par 4 (though again somewhat difficult)

David_Elvins

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2011, 10:33:47 PM »
Royal Melbourne Composite has a pretty special collection of par 4s.  Particularly if you call 2W and 4W par 4s.  

3 great short 4s (3W, 1E, 10W), 3 great long 4s (2W,4W, 17W), and a lot of really cool holes in between.  
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Scott Warren

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2011, 10:50:21 PM »
Mac,

Quote
First off, "a bulls roar"?    

Secondly, any one favorite there Scott and/or any specific feelings the holes conjured up?

Perhaps "within a bull's roar" is an Australianism? Well, one would imagine a bull could roar at quite some volume and, as such, the roar would be audible quite some distance away... ;D

As Andy mentioned above, they really are a "set" of par fours in that they combine to ask pretty much every question possible while being outstanding individually.

There's hooks and fades off the tee, holes where you can hit either, downhill tee shots and approaches, uphill tee shots and approaches, tee shots over ridges to blind landing areas, greens you can run it onto, greens where you have to fly it on, hybrid/long iron approach shots, wedge or less approach shots, wild internal green contours, solid slopes, tiers... as a set they have everything.

Favourites?

2, 6, 8, 13 and 18.

All pose great challenges, but the nature of the challenge varies enormously and the shots are all massively thrilling:

judging the pitch up the hill at the 2nd and trying to get it in the same segment of the rolling green as the pin;

gauging how daring to be on the drive at 6 and then using the slope of the green to your advantage if you're coming at it from a bad position;

the thrill of the delicate pitch from a challenging lie to a tiny green at the 8th, where birdie ought to be on the cards but you can sense a double bogey lurking;

the approach at the 13th, likely played with a long iron or hybrid, that offers an easy lay-up to the right of the green (from where a downslope onto the green makes it hard to play close to a RHS pin, not that you can tell that from the DZ) and the temptation of going for the peninsula green over the wasteland, or can you shape a draw that avoids carrying the waste and then runs onto the green?;

finally 18, where there is trouble everywhere, but a punchbowl green that will gather anything landing on its surface, a friendly hand if you can avoid all the trouble.

Despite what some people say, all of those shots are as much fun as you can have on the golf course, and those five great holes are just the tip of the iceburg when it comes to why Pine Valley is such an incredible golf course.

jim_lewis

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2011, 10:54:21 PM »
IMHO it is PIne Valley, hands down.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Mac Plumart

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2011, 10:56:12 PM »
Thanks Scott.

Those are great descriptions.  I love the descriptive words you used when describing the holes.  Thrill, delicate, temptation.  To me, as someone who has never played the course, I need this to even begin to get a sense of what actually playing the holes feel like.

I can see why Pine Valley is so highly regarded.

 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2011, 11:11:28 PM »
Shivas,
Thanks for the response. In regard the the set at The National, while 3 clearly stands out, I also love 16 and 17, of course, now that 5 is a par 4, it is a pretty great hole. (and like you said about RCCC the rest ain't bad either) if the par 4's are that outstanding at RCCC, I certainly hope to get a chance to see them one day!

Keith,

How could you leave # 8 out ?

# 15 ?

# 14 ?

# 1 as a starting hole ?

I think you may have had one Southsider too many

« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 10:42:27 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2011, 11:12:36 PM »
Mountain Ridge's par 4's comprise a very strong collection, all 11 of them.

Doug Siebert

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2011, 02:48:44 AM »
I second Wade on Lahinch.  I've never had the good fortune to play NGLA, but it has a high standard indeed to beat if its to exceed the bar set by Lahinch.

The Old Course has some awesome par 4s as well, the problem with it in this competition is that it has 14 of them, so there is more room for comparatively ordinary holes like 1 and 9 that detract from the greatness of the overall set.  Lahinch doesn't miss with any of its 4s.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2011, 03:08:35 AM »
I haven't seen RCCC but they'd have to be pretty good to beat Pine Valley and Royal Melbourne (Composite) as far as the best I've seen.

James Boon

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2011, 04:13:22 AM »
I've played quite a few courses with almost a great set of par 4s but then there will be a real dud or a couple that feel very similar. For instance Deal almost has a great set but as has often been said here 9 and 11 are too similar.

With that in mind, and apologies for home bias, but I think Hollinwell has a great set of par 4s, especially as it has 12 of them. Starting with a heathland setting, moving through parkland, up to moorland and then back to heathland, every hole offers something different. The real highlights are 2 in front of Robin Hood's seat, 8 driving past the Holy Well, 15 to a tiny green set deep in the hilside and 18 is a real challenge to finish.

I do think its worthy of consideration here, but as I said I'm biased, so feel free to go back to discussing PV, TOC etc  ;D

Cheers,

James

2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

David_Elvins

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2011, 05:34:36 AM »
It's the par 4s that make a course. A list of the world's best set of par 4s will be almost identical to a list of the world' best courses.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Keith OHalloran

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2011, 07:45:01 AM »
Pat,
My formula was simple really.
Shivas mentiones that RCCC had 3 all world holes, so I knew that I should mention 3 ot 4 total (including the 3rd) as I did not want to mention every hole on the course and look like a NGLA butt boy.
So, I am a sucker for punchbowl holes, and I wanted to mention 16, that left me 2 holes. I think the green on 17 is very underrated. It has a subtle run off and angle, so I mentioned that.
As for the holes I left out.
Hole 1, I left out because the potential to embarass yourself by hitting the clubhouse (I have done it) detracts fromt he hole  ;D
Hole 2, Christian Greco got a hole in one, so I refuse to call it a par 4 anymore!
And the rest of the holes should certianly have been mentioned.
P.S. While I love Southsides, I am more of a beer man, and I try not to blame any mistakes I make on alcohol, that is my wife's job!

Mike Hendren

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2011, 10:20:31 AM »
Apart from the usual suspects of top 25 courses, I think Chambers Bay set is up there with any I have seen.

+1 notwithstanding my bias for the classics.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2011, 10:51:49 AM »
Keith,

I think you're right about # 17 green
My one complaint about that green, and it just might be attributable to coincidence, is that I rarely see the hole cut in the front or front right or far and back right locations.

In all of the times I've played there, the hole seems to have been cut center or toward 9 and 10 o'clock.
I'd like to see more 2,3,4,5 and 6 o'clock locations, along with 12 and 1 o'clock locations.

I love # 8 because of the demands on the drive, approach and recovery shots

Jeff Taylor

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Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2011, 01:27:38 PM »


# 1 as a starting hole ?

I think you may have had one Southsider too many[/b][/size][/color]

I keep going back through my mind about NGLA #1 and it's severe green. I cannot determine if it adds to or takes away from the greatness of the hole. I had seen only 1 green like it up to that point and that was grand Cypress #1. It just seemed too severe for an opener. I understand about the short approach requiring more precision but that thing was impossible. Maybe you can help me out Patrick.
Thanks.
JT

Ian Andrew

Re: The best set of par 4's?
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2011, 03:09:22 PM »
I’ll echo the comments about Pine Valley.
I’m hard pressed to find a better, more diverse and clever set
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 03:12:41 PM by Ian Andrew »

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