Why do the USGA need +14 stimps for the US Open?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pete,

That's my point.

It's a misguided attempt to protect par at the wrong end of the hole.

Distance is and continues to be the problem, not greens that stimp at 10, 11, 12 or 13.

And, the thought of disfiguring wonderful greens, greens with character in order to get higher stimp speeds in order to protect par is tragically misguided.

You may recall that the USGA put forth a maximum size on a driver head, then acquiesced when the manufacturers wanted larger heads.

Driver length, clubhead size, trampoline effect and the ball need to be reigned in, rather than ruining greens with great character.

[Brett Morris]

Tom O'Toole noted the following in the USGA press conference about green speed:

"Green speeds, always a hallmark of a United States Golf Association setup, firm and fast on the putting greens, not one specific Stimpmeter reading. Here we targeted about 14 to 14 and a half was Mike's pleasure, but by way of comparison at Pebble Beach last year, we were in the 11 to 11 and a half foot range on the Stimpmeter, and by comparison at Oakmont Golf Course in 2007 the green speeds were between 14 and a half and 15."

As far as health of the greens, Mike Davis noted:

"According to Mike Giuffre and Stan Zontek, who's our USGA agronomist, there's no concern with the health of the greens long-term."

From here:

http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=72007

[Patrick_Mucci]

There is NO way that Oakmont stimped at 14.5 to 15

At 15 a ball will not cease rolling on a 2 degree slope, and Oakmont's greens have slopes well in excess of 2 degrees.

# 1, 2, 9, 10, 12, 13 and 18 have pronounced slopes.

The only relatively flat greens are # 8, 14 and 17.

The rest have a good amount of slope in them, hence I'm not buying Oakmont at 14.5 to 15.

[David Camponi]

Just finished listening to Bob Friend on the PGA Tour Network on XM, he said that he sat with Mike Davis each morning and witnessed them stimp Oakmont's greens every day of the 07 US Open; he said in the mornings they stimped at 14.1.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Just finished listening to Bob Friend on the PGA Tour Network on XM, he said that he sat with Mike Davis each morning and witnessed them stimp Oakmont's greens every day of the 07 US Open; he said in the mornings they stimped at 14.1.

On Sunday.....13.5 plus a few inches the other 3 days. They were the same for the US Women's Open last year.

[jeffwarne]

Pete,

That's my point.

It's a misguided attempt to protect par at the wrong end of the hole.

Distance is and continues to be the problem, not greens that stimp at 10, 11, 12 or 13.

And, the thought of disfiguring wonderful greens, greens with character in order to get higher stimp speeds in order to protect par is tragically misguided.

You may recall that the USGA put forth a maximum size on a driver head, then acquiesced when the manufacturers wanted larger heads.

Driver length, clubhead size, trampoline effect and the ball need to be reigned in, rather than ruining greens with great character.

Perfectly put.

This morning on the Golf Channel, they mentioned how Rees had to soften the contours to accomodate the green speeds desired by the USGA.
ISN'T THAT ABSOLUTELY FREAKING BACKWARDS!!!!!!!!!

[Carl Nichols]

Pete,

That's my point.

It's a misguided attempt to protect par at the wrong end of the hole.

Distance is and continues to be the problem, not greens that stimp at 10, 11, 12 or 13.

And, the thought of disfiguring wonderful greens, greens with character in order to get higher stimp speeds in order to protect par is tragically misguided.

You may recall that the USGA put forth a maximum size on a driver head, then acquiesced when the manufacturers wanted larger heads.

Driver length, clubhead size, trampoline effect and the ball need to be reigned in, rather than ruining greens with great character.

Perfectly put.

This morning on the Golf Channel, they mentioned how Rees had to soften the contours to accomodate the green speeds desired by the USGA.
ISN'T THAT ABSOLUTELY FREAKING BACKWARDS!!!!!!!!!

Isn't this completely inconsistent with the opinion offered by some people that stimps of 14 or 14.5 demonstrates that Congressional's greens are/were bad/boring -- that is, some people have suggested that because Congressional's greens are boring/bad, the USGA has been forced to move to 14/14.5.  These stories suggest just the opposite.

[Jim Eder]

Is it me or do the greens seem like they are stressing already? They are receptive but there is a bit of brown popping up it seems.  Sadly, the weather was not helpful. It seems like there is a lot of risk given the way they look right now. Seems like the Post article John mentioned is on the right track sadly. Anyone else worried about how they are looking and how they will be this weekend?   

[Jim Eder]

And if they become stressed how might that affect the pin placements for the weekend?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I think the greens look great.

We've become conditioned to expect emerald green greens.

Brownish-yellowish-greenish fairways and greens usually provide the best playing surfaces

[Jim Eder]

That is great to hear. Over in the UK the turf is always excellent with that look but I was worried about here in states. I have been conditioned to believe when the bent greens turn (because of the heat and humidity) that they are stressed and need to be cut higher. With the different strains it must be less of an issue.  They do seem to be rolling very well.

[Jim Eder]

The scores seem a bit higher than I would have expected given the greens are rolling nicely, are at a good speed, are holding well and that there is no wind.  I would have thought we would have seen a 65 and a few 66s given the conditions.

[David Camponi]

Just finished listening to Bob Friend on the PGA Tour Network on XM, he said that he sat with Mike Davis each morning and witnessed them stimp Oakmont's greens every day of the 07 US Open; he said in the mornings they stimped at 14.1.

On Sunday.....13.5 plus a few inches the other 3 days. They were the same for the US Women's Open last year.

No 14.1

[jeffwarne]

Jim,

I think the greens look great.

We've become conditioned to expect emerald green greens.

Brownish-yellowish-greenish fairways and greens usually provide the best playing surfaces

The greens don't look great to me.
they look like they're rotting.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Just finished listening to Bob Friend on the PGA Tour Network on XM, he said that he sat with Mike Davis each morning and witnessed them stimp Oakmont's greens every day of the 07 US Open; he said in the mornings they stimped at 14.1.

On Sunday.....13.5 plus a few inches the other 3 days. They were the same for the US Women's Open last year.

No 14.1

Check your PM

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Eder,

I don't know the last time Congressional's greens were regrassed, but, in the northeast it's hard to retain "purity" of strain for long.

The Washington, D.C. area is notoriously difficut for maintaining great greens and political sanity.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jim Eder,

I don't know the last time Congressional's greens were regrassed, but, in the northeast it's hard to retain "purity" of strain for long.

The Washington, D.C. area is notoriously difficut for maintaining great greens and political sanity.

2009

[Jim Eder]

Thanks Patrick. I would think it would be difficult down there given how sustained the heat and humidity are (not that the northeast doesn't get it as well but not as sustained as D.C.).

Davis just mentioned the greens are getting bumpy. :/

[David Camponi]

Just finished listening to Bob Friend on the PGA Tour Network on XM, he said that he sat with Mike Davis each morning and witnessed them stimp Oakmont's greens every day of the 07 US Open; he said in the mornings they stimped at 14.1.

On Sunday.....13.5 plus a few inches the other 3 days. They were the same for the US Women's Open last year.

No 14.1

I listened to the Bob Friend on the radio give a detailed story, he said the greens were rolling 14.1 in the morning. Sorry I am more apt to believe him and his first hand account rather than your source Saying 13.5. Friend did not say it in passing either, Brian Katrick said that he had never heard that Oakmont was rolling 14 and Peter Kessler said that they should get Bob Friend on the phone cause he would know,  he called in and told the story  Call him a liar if you wish  Thanks.

Check your PM

[Anthony_Nysse]

Just finished listening to Bob Friend on the PGA Tour Network on XM, he said that he sat with Mike Davis each morning and witnessed them stimp Oakmont's greens every day of the 07 US Open; he said in the mornings they stimped at 14.1.

On Sunday.....13.5 plus a few inches the other 3 days. They were the same for the US Women's Open last year.

No 14.1

I listened to the Bob Friend on the radio give a detailed story, he said the greens were rolling 14.1 in the morning. Sorry I am more apt to believe him and his first hand account rather than your source Saying 13.5. Friend did not say it in passing either, Brian Katrick said that he had never heard that Oakmont was rolling 14 and Peter Kessler said that they should get Bob Friend on the phone cause he would know,  he called in and told the story  Call him a liar if you wish  Thanks.

Check your PM

My source? So the Assistant Superintendent at Oakmont, the time of the US Open, is just a source? Better check that one.

[Jerry Kluger]

Yesterday I marshaled the 14th hole which is second only to #11(a converted par 5) in difficulty.  The rough to either side of the fairway in the landing area was really thick and made for some real problems in approach shots.  The landing area is narrowed so nearly all the players laid back and had 175-190 yards uphill and the hole was located on the upper shelf.  I cannot describe how bad Phil's tee shot was - had to be 20 yards left of the fairway and I would guess 180 yards off the tee.  Anyway, the second shots were not holding so the good shots hit the front of the green and rolled up to the second shelf.  Garrigus hit from the intermediate rough and his ball rolled up and hit the flagstick and wound up about 6 inches from the cup.  The biggest blunders were players hitting from the fairway and winding up in the short side bunkers on the left. The green was quick but I didn't see anything that looked like 14 to my untrained eye.

[Carl Nichols]

Jerry:
It looked like there are many greens where they've lost grass on the edges, and then a few greens looked like they were developing some pretty brown spots in the heart of the greens.  Did you notice that? 

[Jerry Kluger]

Carl: I did notice that on a number of greens - saw it on number 4 as early as Tuesday although 14 seems to be holding up well. They need some fans to cool them down - maybe the rain last night will help.