Why do the USGA need +14 stimps for the US Open?

[Jerry Kluger]

I don't know how they can get bent grass greens rolling at 14 in the summer months without really softening them.  Oh now I remember how they can do it - remember what happened at Ridgewood - there were a whole bunch of greens that were severely damaged by shaving them down and insufficient water because they were afraid that they would be too soft and receptive.  I would also say that green speeds that high will really limit the possible hole locations. 

[Tim Gavrich]

Very interesting stuff here.  I've always felt better and more comfortable on faster greens.  Now, I don't think I've ever putted on greens faster than 13, but I can definitely agree in theory with Steve Kline's sentiment about the greens in Houston.

The way I've always seen it, on faster greens you don't need to make as big a putting stroke.  Less margin for error...that's always suited me.

What speeds do ANGC's greens reach on Sunday the year of a dry Masters?  I've heard they have lots and lots of slope and assume they run up in the 13+ range.  I wouldn't say those greens suffer from a lack of interesting pin positions, at least from watching the tournament on television.

I heard last year at the Travelers championship that the TPC River Highlands planned to re-contour the greens in the near future in order to tolerate tournament green speeds of 12+, rather than the usual 10-11.  I hope that doesn't happen; I've always liked the greens there and they'll only get less interesting.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Rather than highjack Mark B's thread I'll ask the question here. On the other thread thread there seems to be almost universal agreement that slower greens are harder to putt than faster ones. Is there anybody willing to dispute that?

Yes, I'll dispute it. :-)

If the greens are the same, 8-10-stimp greens are much, much easier to put than 13 stimp greens. You will 3-putt (and 4-putt!!) much more frequently on the same green stimping at 13 than at 10. At my old home course the greens generally stimped around 8.5 in the summer and 11 to 11.5 in the winter. There was simply no comparison as to the "ease" of putting in those two conditions for me (and most other members). In the summer, I would frequently go 5, 6, even 10 rounds without ever 3-putting. In the winter, I would 3-putt, on average once a round.

You're missing something here. The difference in difficulty from 8 to 11 is substantial. 11 is much more difficult. But 13 is not much more difficult than 11, I would even go so far as to say 13 is easier than 11 because now you basically have only one variable to contend with, line. The ball is going to get to the hole, just give is a slight tap. 8.5 greens are easy to putt on. But I'm going to tell you flat out that greens running like 6 are madly difficult to putt on. I played somewhere a while back, can't remember where, and the greens were incredibly slow. Grass on them looked like the carpet in my living room, both height and smoothness. Try making putts when you have to read 8-12 inches of break from 15 feet and also have to make a half shoulder turn to get the ball to the hole.

You want tough putting? Get some old school grainy bermuda, make the greens hard as concrete and run them at about 6. Tour guys would $h!t their drawers trying to putt those greens, having to figure in slope, speed and a mad amount of grain.

[JMEvensky]

You want tough putting? Get some old school grainy bermuda, make the greens hard as concrete and run them at about 6. Tour guys would $h!t their drawers trying to putt those greens, having to figure in slope, speed and a mad amount of grain.

Yeah,for about 5 minutes on the putting green.Then,they'd adjust.Same as do with everything else.

Half the guys on tour grew up putting greens as you describe.

I'm curious,have you ever met a guy who plays for a living?

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

You want tough putting? Get some old school grainy bermuda, make the greens hard as concrete and run them at about 6. Tour guys would $h!t their drawers trying to putt those greens, having to figure in slope, speed and a mad amount of grain.

Yeah,for about 5 minutes on the putting green.Then,they'd adjust.Same as do with everything else.

Half the guys on tour grew up putting greens as you describe.

I'm curious,have you ever met a guy who plays for a living?

Several of them, why?

While we're on the subject the ones I know will pretty much say they want as few variables as possible. They love courses with flat fairways, fairly flat greens, don't like bermuda grass because of grain, don't like bermuda rough and so forth. I've had them tell me they prefer courses just after a rain because the ball stops exactly where you hit it and you don't have to figure in release and roll, etc. I can go on, but I can say that a grainy bermuda green with a lot of contour, hard as a brick and slow will give players a much greater challenge than a flat green running fast.

[PCCraig]

First of all US Open greens don't stimp over 14. I've stimped greens at 2 U.S. Open's and both rolled around 13/13.5. If anyone tells you they have 14+ speeds, I wouldn't buy it. Once you get greens rolling that fast it's hard to get an accurate reading on a truly flat surface. We pushed green's to the max at last years Open and we only reached speeds of 13.5.

Stewart, Stewart, Stewart....Greens of 14+ are more common than you think for special circumstances. We've been over 14.5" for member guest and the following video will prove that it does happen. Seminole's greens are 13.5-14' consistantly....

ftp://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hoG7_ukb1w

Consistently?

Is the average member at Seminole anywhere near good enough to play greens that fast on a daily basis?

[JR Potts]

They love courses with flat fairways, fairly flat greens, don't like bermuda grass because of grain, don't like bermuda rough and so forth. I've had them tell me they prefer courses just after a rain because the ball stops exactly where you hit it and you don't have to figure in release and roll, etc. I can go on, but I can say that a grainy bermuda green with a lot of contour, hard as a brick and slow will give players a much greater challenge than a flat green running fast.

Generalize much?

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

They love courses with flat fairways, fairly flat greens, don't like bermuda grass because of grain, don't like bermuda rough and so forth. I've had them tell me they prefer courses just after a rain because the ball stops exactly where you hit it and you don't have to figure in release and roll, etc. I can go on, but I can say that a grainy bermuda green with a lot of contour, hard as a brick and slow will give players a much greater challenge than a flat green running fast.

Generalize much?

Of the guys I have spoken to who have played for a living at one time or another, it tends to come out that way. Basically they (the ones I have dealt with) want as few variables as possible.

[Sean_A]

First of all US Open greens don't stimp over 14. I've stimped greens at 2 U.S. Open's and both rolled around 13/13.5. If anyone tells you they have 14+ speeds, I wouldn't buy it. Once you get greens rolling that fast it's hard to get an accurate reading on a truly flat surface. We pushed green's to the max at last years Open and we only reached speeds of 13.5.

Stewart, Stewart, Stewart....Greens of 14+ are more common than you think for special circumstances. We've been over 14.5" for member guest and the following video will prove that it does happen. Seminole's greens are 13.5-14' consistantly....

ftp://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hoG7_ukb1w

I like the comments about this video much better than the video.

"You gusy are nerds, I hope it's really hot"

"Could only be in the US of A"

Ciao

[Phil McDade]

First of all US Open greens don't stimp over 14. I've stimped greens at 2 U.S. Open's and both rolled around 13/13.5. If anyone tells you they have 14+ speeds, I wouldn't buy it. Once you get greens rolling that fast it's hard to get an accurate reading on a truly flat surface. We pushed green's to the max at last years Open and we only reached speeds of 13.5.

Stewart, Stewart, Stewart....Greens of 14+ are more common than you think for special circumstances. We've been over 14.5" for member guest and the following video will prove that it does happen. Seminole's greens are 13.5-14' consistantly....

ftp://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hoG7_ukb1w

Consistently?

Is the average member at Seminole anywhere near good enough to play greens that fast on a daily basis?

I'm guessing these greens are 14 or so.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LDhbyZPl9M&feature=related

[Pete Lavallee]

Perhaps the Supers could chime in: is the USGA's intent to provide the smoothest greens, which therefore make them fast? Or are they trying for the fastest greens which tends to make them smooth? Is the 0.1 inch mowing height all that different from what exclusive privates mow at on a regular basis?

[Stewart Naugler]

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that you can get greens rolling over 14. I'm speaking strictly from a U.S. Open perspective. It's extremely difficult to find truly flat spots on the greens at Pebble. If you use a clinometer to measure the slope, I'd be shocked if it's a truly flat surface and your greens are alive. We pushed the greens at Pebble to the max and we couldn't get over 14. When the greens are that fast, it's really difficult to get an accurate reading. I'd love to see it!

[Stewart Naugler]

Wow the ball is curving in that video! That's not even an accurate reading...

[Phil McDade]

Can anyone out there explain the difference between say, 12 and 14? Is the difference one of degree, or moreso? For instance, is the difference between 12 and 13 the same as the difference between 13 and 14, or does the quickness go up exponentially as one exceeds a stimp of, say, 10.

My own experiece -- at a GCA outing two summers ago (in what is probably typical US Open conditions -- hot summer weather in the mid-80s) at Flossmoor (Tweedie, turn of the century, south suburbs of Chicago), we putted on greens that were, according to Supt. Bob Lively, stimping at 12.8 Lively is regarded as one of the best and most dedicated supers out there, i.e., I don't think he was pulling our legs about the green stimps. And the Flossmoor membership, from all reports, likes its greens quick.

Now, I may be the worst golfer who regularly posts here on GCA, and I didn't think the Flossmoor greens were crazy fast. Quick, yes, and you had to be really careful in some spots. But nothing goofy (along the lines of the video I posted on Oakmont on this thread). Flossmoor's greens are admittedly not severly sloped, but they have distinct cants, and being above the hole and trying to two-putt on them is a real challenge. But not a goofy one. I thought -- at 12.8 -- they were very fast, but very fair.

[jeffwarne]

First of all US Open greens don't stimp over 14. I've stimped greens at 2 U.S. Open's and both rolled around 13/13.5. If anyone tells you they have 14+ speeds, I wouldn't buy it. Once you get greens rolling that fast it's hard to get an accurate reading on a truly flat surface. We pushed green's to the max at last years Open and we only reached speeds of 13.5.

Stewart, Stewart, Stewart....Greens of 14+ are more common than you think for special circumstances. We've been over 14.5" for member guest and the following video will prove that it does happen. Seminole's greens are 13.5-14' consistantly....

ftp://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hoG7_ukb1w

Consistently?

Is the average member at Seminole anywhere near good enough to play greens that fast on a daily basis?

Of course he's "good enough".
For God sakes my good man the greens at his club run at 14!

but he'll be better next year when they run at 16...

[Stewart Naugler]

Phil- The Oakmont video you posted is excellent! I happen to know that particular green pretty well and there's a little bit of slope on that edge but not enough to make the ball roll like that. When the ball continues to roll out like that at the end... That's when you know you have crazy fast greens. Zimmers poa greens are probably the fastest greens I've putted on.

[David Ober]

Phil- The Oakmont video you posted is excellent! I happen to know that particular green pretty well and there's a little bit of slope on that edge but not enough to make the ball roll like that. When the ball continues to roll out like that at the end... That's when you know you have crazy fast greens. Zimmers poa greens are probably the fastest greens I've putted on.

Poa greens can get ridiculously fast in the winter/spring -- at least that's the fastest time for them here in SoCal. Poa is also a great putting surface, but only in the morning!

[Doug Siebert]

The problem with very fast greens is that short putts are almost always straight, because they have to be fairly flat.  How often do you see a pro with a four footer that breaks a foot?  Those are hard in a casual round.  I cannot imagine trying to putt a left to right four footer with a foot of break under US Open pressure.  Maybe the guys in charge of the USGA can't either, that's why the pros aren't put in the position of having to do so!

[Matt Day]

the stipmeter ranks up there with flat pack furniture as one of man's nastiest inventions

[michael damico]

reading this and recalling my days working maintenance at Oak Hill where every member's tournament was treated as a weekend for the pro's, I ask what is the country clubber's mentality when it comes to green speeds? Has television influenced their opinions so much that when they can't afford their dues because of the massive expense to rebuild great, contouring, original greens into something that is "putt-able by today's mowing heights", these clubbers simply want to have what is touted by ESPN as the hardest test of golf.

Jeez...now I've got myself going on a mental rant about ESPN (completely OT)

[michael damico]

the stipmeter ranks up there with flat pack furniture as one of man's nastiest inventions

+10!

[Pete Lavallee]

The Stimpmeter was originally designed to help gain consistancy fom green to green, not quantify who has the biggest dick!

[Steve Okula]

For what it's worth, I prepared a course for the European Tour last year. Their instructions to me were to hold the green speeds strictly between 9'6" and 10'6", but preferably on the high end of that range. The Tour officials were only relaying the wishes of the players, who are, in effect, their bosses. Those players wanted that speed on the greens at all the Tour evens, week in and week out, because they did indeed want to deal with as few variables as possible.

I have found that once you get up to 12' stimps or faster, the greens become difficult to measure with any accuracy, as SNaughter suggests. It also becomes difficult to keep consistency unless you have the resources to stimp and tailor the mowing and rolling practices for each individual green that morning, some greens will run away from you while others lag behind.

Pete Lavallee is exactly right regarding the original intent of the invention of the Stimpmeter. Lately I've been using mine as a hoe to weed wild flower areas.

And Phil McDade, I challenge your statement that you're the worst golfer here. I'm sure I could give you a run for your money.

[BCrosby]

As noted by several people above, good players will adjust their putting to green speeds pretty quickly. Whether slow or fast.

Recovery shots are where fast greens matter most, even for the pros. Short-siding yourself on a green rolling at 14+ is a much harder recovery than on a green rolling at 8 or 9.

Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

Recovery shots are where fast greens matter most, even for the pros. Short-siding yourself on a green rolling at 14+ is a much harder recovery than on a green rolling at 8 or 9.

Bob

Yes, which is why I believe that the faster the green the purer the champion.