Rock Creek Cattle Company (Photo Tour)

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks for the link to the scorecard. Reminded me how they stole that cow skull emblem from Jawbone Creek Country Club where I learned to play.

[Brock Peyer]

Great pix, incredible backdrops. 

[Andy Troeger]

Just an awesome golf course. Wondering how many who have played here and Ballyneal prefer Rock Creek, besides Shivas and Franklin. I prefer Ballyneal but not by much...

I prefer Rock Creek too. I think the balance of the challenge between tee-to-green and the greens themselves is better and less dependent on wind. I'll freely admit that's probably a reason others like Ballyneal better. The aesthetics is also more up my alley at RCCC, but that's personal preference.

Kalen,
Your memory stinks--that was the only day on that trip that I WASN'T in left field the entire round. I was only in the stuff a few times, a bit less than you I believe  

Now all the other rounds and especially at Idaho Club...yikes!

[Carl Nichols]

So if you were planning a trip to a single course west of Chicago but east of the Sierra Nevadas, would you go to Sand Hills, Prairie Dunes, Ballyneal or Rock Creek?  And am I missing anything in that league?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Such a good looking course.  I still feel sick about missing a chance to make this trip this summer.

[Dave McCollum]

Thanks, Peter, for all of the photos.  The place looks outstanding.

It looks like there's a lot of width out there, but can anyone comment about the rocks in the tall grasses and rough coming into play?  I realize they're throughout the property, but any reports of injuries or broken clubs?

It’s been a couple of years.   I’m a hack, but I played RCCC with guys that I have to give a lot of strokes to.  We’re talking good friends, but 20 cappers.  I don’t remember the rough and rocks being that big of problem for us.  We had a forecaddie that bird dogged everything and probably didn’t lose a ball until the 17th when one guy put three in the creek.  There is tons of width and plenty of room to play.  Notice in the pictures the classic risk/reward bunker placement.  The fairway bunkers are almost always used as transitions to the native.  Stay away from the bunkers and you’ll avoid the native areas full of rock.  Take on the bunkers to cut off yardage and gain advantage, well, you take your chances.  This is Montana.  I’m sure the RGD crew had all the rock removal they could handle building course.  Going into the native would be like a life sentence on the chain gang.

[Phil McDade]

I have to ask (not that it matters) --

On a scale of 1-10 (1 being Florida flat, 10 being some Engh thing in Colorado), what's the walkability of RCCC? I see some cart tracks on a few of the photos....

[Craig Sweet]

Some comments on the "width"....my playing partner and I are not the straightest hitters and not once did we find the tall grass...in fact the second hole fairway must be close to 100 yards wide...

The Par 4's are exceptional...you might play one that tilts and rolls to the green...the next one dips and rolls up a gradual hill like a giant roller coaster...the next tumbles down and squeezes between fescue and rock ridges...lots of surprises and angles to play...

The greens have so much movement...we found ourselves trying putts from every possible location on nearly every green...what a blast!

We walked the course on a hot August day...thank god for the wonderful, fully stocked, half way house between #8 and #9!

The scenery is incredible...and I live out here and have become quite use to nice scenery.

How does it compare to some of the other courses mention? Well, I have not played any of them...only seen  photo's...but I can not imagine any of them have fairways like RCCC.

[Jeff Doerr]

I have to ask (not that it matters) --

On a scale of 1-10 (1 being Florida flat, 10 being some Engh thing in Colorado), what's the walkability of RCCC? I see some cart tracks on a few of the photos....

Phil, super walkable and a perfect study in routing a mountain course. It really unfolds as a great journey. I did a write up for the Walking Golfer Society a while back. http://www.thewalkinggolfer.com/rock-creek-cattle-company.html

[Jordan Caron]

Thanks for posting the pictures.  That 16th hole is pure magic! 

As a side note, looking at the pics Kalen posted it sure is pleasing to my eye to see the fesuce grass burnt as it defines the hole better and provides some color contrast. 

[Jeff Tang]

Wow, these are some sweet looking pictures, thanks for posting. Love the backdrops and it looks like the place just has a really cool feel to it.

[Jim Tang]

Wonderful photo thread. 

For those who have played RCCC, what is the width of the fairways like?  Are they comparable to say, Ballyneal?  From the pictures, the fairways seem to be generous, but, pictures can be deceptive.

Also, does this course play soft or firm and fast?  It looks rather plush.

[Kalen Braley]

Wonderful photo thread. 

For those who have played RCCC, what is the width of the fairways like?  Are they comparable to say, Ballyneal?  From the pictures, the fairways seem to be generous, but, pictures can be deceptive.

Also, does this course play soft or firm and fast?  It looks rather plush.

Fairways are plenty wide for sure. The only tee shot that I was a little leery of was 18 because I knew I couldn't miss short or left. In total they are probably every bit as wide as ballyneal, if not more so.

As for the course, it played fast and firm for the most part when I was there in the August time frame.  Hitting low running approach shots was an option on most holes....

[Jim Franklin]

RCCC's par 4's are better than TOC's par 4's?

Yes.  Way better green complexes, plus all the interest in terms of multiple lines of play and funky bounces/rolls in the fairways that can make or break your chosen play.  

[Name omitted upon request], if you're still out there, it's been a few years, the shine is certainly off the apple at this point, and I would still tell the pilot of that hypothetical airplane picking us up at Palwaukee to set course for Butte, MT...

Make sure you pick me up please because I couldn't agree more. Private jet, my choice of destinations, and off we go to Montana.

[Harris Nepon]

Great pics, thanks.

Shivas,

You made a pretty bold statement that you would play here over a lot of greats. Can you explain a little more? Just curious to hear why.

THanks

[Jim Franklin]

Great pics, thanks.

Shivas,

You made a pretty bold statement that you would play here over a lot of greats. Can you explain a little more? Just curious to hear why.

THanks

There have been numerous threads on this and I completely agree. I have played 95 of the current Golf Digest Top 100, and put RCCC in my Top 10 and best modern course. Just a blast to play!

[Mac Plumart]

I finally got the chance to check out Rock Creek.

I thought the par 3's just might have been the best collection of par 3's I've seen.  I particularly liked the back to back par 3's in the middle of the round.  And the 17th is stunning, thrilling, with a great green.

The par 4's were certainly very good, I like a few other courses par 4's better, NGLA and The Old Course for starters, but that is not really a slight to Rock Creek.

And the par 5 10th is an all world golf hole.

Some interesting things about the course from my perspective...

The bunkering.

Great strategic bunkering and all that good stuff.  But the lips of the bunkers were wild/weird to me.  Check out the centerline bunker on the first hole.



This was the look of many of the bunkers lips.  I was wondering if that was done as a maintenance/erosion control kind of deal OR if the soil was so full of rocks and "thick" that the look of the lips was purely natural.  Perhaps Tom could comment.

Also, the rough...oh my goodness the rough.  Rocks, rocks, and more rocks.



Here is a big one, but there were small ones, hidden ones, obvious ones, and buried ones.  Once off the fairway it felt like golfing in the desert.  I should have brought a club specifically for hacking it out of the rocks.

And then the greens.  I think the set of greens at Rock Creek were the best set of Doak greens I've ever played.  (And an aside, thus far I've played Ballyneal, Sebonack, Renaissance, and now Rock Creek).



They weren't as dramatic or memorable as Ballyneal with true gems like 7, 8, and 12.  But they were just really good, not overly fast on the stimp meter, with great contouring.  Loved them.

[Jim Colton]

Mac,

After hearing the positive - best set of par 3, strong par 4's, all-world 10th hole and best Doak greens, I expected to see it pretty high on your personal rankings. Was there anything besides the bunker lips and rocks that were a detractor?

___________
The Old Course
The Golf Club
Pinehurst #2
Sand Hills
Nat'l  Golf Links of America
Kiawah Ocean  Course
Muirfield
Shinnecock Hills
The Dormie
Renaissance
Canterbury
Sebonack
Dismal River
Harbour Town
Pete Dye GC of WV
Ballyneal
Crail Balcomie
Seminole
Sea Island--Seaside
Inverness
Shadow Creek
Maidstone
North Berwick West
Rock Creek
Sage Valley

[David Camponi]

I agree, why don't you love it? Going out there i am sure u were expecting something better than your 26th favorite course. Don't be a pansy and tell us why it is so obviously colossally overated by our fellow GCA members in your opinion.

[Kalen Braley]

I agree, why don't you love it? Going out there i am sure u were expecting something better than your 26th favorite course. Don't be a pansy and tell us why it is so obviously colossally overated by our fellow GCA members in your opinion.

David,

I'm not sure what your story is, but I'll be querying Ran about addint an ignore button feature.  It works pretty sweet in other forums, just click the button select the user and their posts magically disappear.

Half of me wonders if you aren't J/Ks next gen imaginary friend/character, aka Gillette Silver.

[David Camponi]

Wow.. What about my last post offended you, the word pansy?  I want to know what a guy really thought of a course, if you can't state your honest un-afraid opinion on a message board then where can you?

Kalen,
Please don't tattle on me; Do u think u can get to 10k post by end of the year? How cool would that be?

[Mac Plumart]

Jim...

On Rock Creek, to be ranked just behind North Berwick and ahead of Cuscowilla, Yeamans Hall, and Holston Hills on my list of favorites is a pretty darn good place to be ranked.

But I'll do a pros and cons as I see it...

Pros...

1) best set of Doak greens I've played (per my taste),

2) perhaps the best set of par 3's I've ever played,

3) solid par 4's,

4) an all world par 5,

5) good routing for the land available

Cons...

1) land is borderline unsuitable for golf (very hilly almost too much, rocks everywhere),

2) given this I think the routing options might be limited,

3) the look of the blue grass fairways seemed out of place and the white sand bunkers also seemed out of place,

4) a big issue I had with the course centered on the availability of the ground game...and frankly, I might need some help on this and/or play the course again in different conditions...many times I (and/or others in my group) would try a bump and run type of shot only to see it get caught up in the grass and not roll out as I/we suspected/hoped it might (or like it does at St. Andrews, Ballyneal, North Berwick, etc).  So, I am left wondering if the course was simply too wet (as Montana has had a lot of rain) or does bluegrass kind of behave like zoysia and sort of "grab" the ball and prevent a good run up style of game.  I have to believe that the course was simply too wet, but like I said I don't know for sure.

And to David's point/question...I didn't really go out there hoping for and/or expecting anything.  I went out there to see Montana, to see a course that made my "Controversial Course" list, to experience Rock Creek, and to meet up with some friends.  I try not to have any expectations regarding a course...I just want to experience it.  And to that point, the experience was great and where I ranked that course on my list of favorites reflects how much I liked it and should highlight the fact that the course is of high quality.

[David Camponi]

Mac, thx for the explanation. Was it walkable? Is it mainly the soil u r talking about or is it the terrain in regards to be unsuitable for golf?

[Mac Plumart]

David...it is walkable.  You probably know I have some issues with my hips, but I walked a full 18 the first day and the rode for 36 the next day.  I might have been able to walk another 18 the next day, but I would have been hurting.  I think a "normal" person could walk it every day (maybe not 108 holes in a day like Jim at Ballyneal, but that is Ballyneal and Jim is superhuman!!).

On the terrain being borderline unsuitable for golf, perhaps the soil had something to do with it...but I am nowhere near a soil expert, so I can't say for sure.  The issues for me where the rocks (first and foremost) and the steep elevation changes.  

But please take note that I said "borderline"...I didn't say it was unsuitable...any more severe on the elevation changes and it probably would be unsuitable for golf if the owner didn't chose an architect that would drastically alter the natural landscape.  And along those lines, I think Tom Doak and his team did a pretty stellar good job keeping minamilism intact on this type of site.  I suppose my question, and perhaps he could answer, would be "Could he have kept to his minamalism mantra if the site for the course had been more severe in terms of topography?"

[Andy Troeger]

Mac,
Thanks for the post and your willingness to express some opinions that are different from others that have posted!

With that said, I have to challenge a couple of your points!

1. I just went back through the photos I have of the course and I can only see where a couple of bunkers have those rocks. Admittedly, a fair amount of the photos are not close ups of the bunkers, but I don't recall the bunkers being particularly strange.

2. I definitely don't think the land is close to unsuitable for golf, but I have to admit that its hillier than any course you have ahead of it on your list. I definitely won't recommend you play much in the mountain time zone, however, as Rock Creek's site is pretty tame compared to a good number of other places! Most of the courses you have ahead of Rock Creek are highly regarded, so I don't feel like you're demoting it significantly. I would have it MUCH higher than Inverness and Harbour Town just to name two. I thought the routing was great--the tee to green transitions were excellent for a course that admittedly does have significant elevation changes. It didn't create any shots that seemed forced or severe IMO.

I also think the par fours as a set are much stronger than the threes or fives. The threes are good and varied as a set, but don't stand out in the way the fours do for me.