[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

A narrowed fairway doesn't a bottle hole make, and that fairway doesn't narrow until you're practically next to the green.

David,

What's interesting about the sketch is that it bears no resemblance to the play of the "bottle". Hole at NGLA

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bottle (Langford):


Bottleneck(Ross):

[Bill_McBride]

At the risk of being vilified en vert, I think the Bottle hole at NGLA is an elaboration on the basic theme of the bottle concept, which is a fairway that narrows as you get closer to the green.  Macdonald throws in the alternate fairway, risk/reward enhancement to this hole, but the basic Bottle concept is illustrated in Jim Kennedy's two drawings. 

Bryan, I really didn't get the bottle feeling that much at Old Mac because driving the ball far enough to get "squeezed" is no longer an option!  The sheer width and scale of Old Mac means there aren't any real bottlenecks. I thought the dominant feature of the hole was that cliff of a false front on the right half of the green. 

[George_Bahto]

At the original at Sunningdale, Macdonald was interested in the "narrowing" of the second shot. He applied that feature into the tee shot at National, although they do not use his original tee any longer.

A simple explanation would be, the narrowing of a landing area which gives ample room for the short hitter but gets progressively more difficult for the longer players.

There can be many variations to this strategy, of course.

[Bryan Izatt]

Thanks to all for the comments.  As usual there is no consensus, but that's just fine.

Bill, I get what you are saying about not being squeezed any more.  I'm getting there too.  Maybe we should have moved up a tee.     And, yes that was one !$@#$%@! of a green at OM.

I think you have a point about NGLA being an elaboration on the concept.  George's simple explanation and variations to the strategy point I think support this.

And, "vilified en vert" - that's good.  Thanks for the smile tonight.

Patrick,  I'm sure that the NGLA Bottle Hole is a wonderful hole with many nuances, but it seems to go beyond the basic principle of a bottle hole as originated at Sunningdale.  The squeezing there is on the second shot and thus near the green too. 

So, for once you are wrong.      There's no ducking emoticon, or I would use it.

 

[Matt Waterbury]

Technically, yes it is a bottle hole. It just has that whole left fairway thingy that is more maintenance than it is worth.

I like bottle holes. Pictured below are two interesting flavors (not back to back, the top is 13 and the bottom 17). The 13th is a driveable (300 yards) par 4 where the bottle "squeeze" is in the middle, forcing you to lay way back or go for it. The 17th is strikingly similar to the hole that is the topic of this thread, with some important tweaks. The left fairway is actually easier to hit (shorter carry, wider) but leaves a less attractive approach to the green.

Cheerio,
Matt

[George_Bahto]

The original main 8th tee at National was just to left of the Road hole green and from there you had the choice of two narrowing tee shots - straight in, not on a diagonal.

The hole was short, just around 380-something or another so it was decided to move the tee to its present location which produced the present diagonal to the left fairway. I’m not sure when it was done and whether it was Macdonald’s idea or not, but something had to be done. About the length of the hole - you certainly couldn’t go further back from the original tee or you’d kill someone on the 7th green,.

More problems about the length came up when long hitters were driving beyond the last of the split fairway hazards so they added the Principals Nose bunker beyond to counter the that problem.

In its true sense, it may have not what Macdonald originally wanted but, hey, look what it ended up - still a great hole and one, it seems, everyone likes a lot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Byran,

I'm certain that you're incorrect 

Perhaps, before rendering judgement you/we should examine all the "bottle" holes crafted by CBM-SR-CB.

Studying the entire body of work as it relates to the bottle concept would seem to be the more intelligent method by which to evaluate the elements necessary in order to categorize a hole as a bottle hole

[Bryan Izatt]

George,

Thanks for the additional insights on NGLA's Bottle Hole. If the original tee shot offered two alternative straight on narrowing fairways, that seems at odds with the 1909 sketch from Whigham that David earlier provided.  Did the original hole, as built, ever approximate the Whigham sketch? 



Patrick,

I'm sure I'm incorrect as usual too.   

Studying the body of work of CBM-SR-CB would, no doubt, give us a fuller understanding of the variations on a theme that they used over time.  But, it would raise the question of whether the concept of CBM's bottle hole template should be the principle(s) that existed in CBM's mind when he built his first one, or should be based ex post facto on his whole body of work.  If it is to be based on his whole body of work, then is it not our modern interpretation of all his variations on a theme of the basic principle?

It might be interesting to look at some additional CBM-SR-CB bottle holes.  Care to suggest two or three that you think are close to their original layouts, and I'll post the aerials of them?



 

[George_Bahto]

 Did the original hole, as built, ever approximate the Whigham sketch? 

NO - not even close (I don't get where Whigham was going with that drawing)

most later versions of the Bottle hole by Charlie's "henchmen" were usually just a pinching on of a fairway landing area - not very exciting

actually, thinking abut it now, there really were not many VG Bottle holes based on the original concept

my book pictured the present 10th at Brendan Byrne in West Orange, NJ - the original West Course of Essex County CC - where the optional fairway was/is up on top, well above the wider fairway, and to play to it was pretty treacherous (narrow and at a pretty severe angle but the reward for playing there was that you were at an eye-level to green. To play to the "easier" fairway you had an easy tee shot but from that landing area the green was blind,  way above you. That shot was/is not an easy one either.

I think that was one of the finest examples of a Bottle hole, esp with the green perched above you (picture the green as Cape-style green with a  30' fall off the the right and the rear

I'll see if I can post that diagram

[Mike Cirba]

George,

That bottle hole at Francis Byrne is terrific!

[George_Bahto]

[Tim Gerrish]

The bottle hole concept can vary like the variations in actual bottle shape.  I keep thinking of the Absolute bottle adds.  Hey, it is Friday!  Must be time to investigate this bottle theory a little closer!

Matt,  Nice pic of Black Rock.  I might categorize 17 as a reverse bottle as compared to NGLA!

[DMoriarty]

Hi George,

Hope all is well.

I am curious where you got that information about the tee being left of the 7th green, and also when the change was made. 

The I think the map on the back of the scorecard, printed in CBM's Report to the Members, signed Jan. 4, 1912, has the tee to the right of the green.

Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Could you post  the map on the back of the 1912 scorecard.

George Bahto,

Since the highly touted results at ECE have become more widespread, have you been contacted about restoring ECW ?

Also, how much more work would you like to do at The Knoll ?
And could you identify it ?

Thanks

[Alex Lagowitz]

George,
Looking at the pictures posted about the Ross Bottle and others where it is a straight hole with no alternate fairway, would you consider the 3rd hole at Essex County CC a version of the bottle hole?

[DMoriarty]

David,

Could you post  the map on the back of the 1912 scorecard.

Here it is.  Given the report was signed Jan 2. 1912, I think it more likely it was the scorecard for 1911. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

You'll note that the tee for # 12 is to the left of the 11th green, whereas, today, it's on the right of the 11th green.

It also shows the 16th tee to the left of the 15th green.  Today, it's both left and right of the 15th green.

George Bahto,

In what year was the tee on # 12 shifted to the right ?

It would seem that the hole is an easier driving hole with that shift and that the 7th fairway is a llttle safer.

Was the tee used for # 12 also employed for # 8 ?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Not to sidetrack the CBM discussion, but here's a good one from Devereux Emmet, mid '20s, at the Hob Nob Hill GC (NLE) in Salisbury, Ct.
He's got the player pinched twice.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks for posting that Jim.  That is a neat hole.  How long?   

Not sure I'd segregate Emmet's courses from a discussion on CBM principles.  I would think some of the same principles would show up on the courses of each given that they were buddies and Emmet played a role in NGLA, and they worked together on Women's National, I think.

[Bill_McBride]

Here's a Bottle hole at Kinloch, posting for Lester George:



This an aerial from above the green.  The left fairway is 10' higher than the right, and yields a better angle.  This is similar to the strategy at NGLA with the essential narrowing characteristic of the Sunningdale Bottle hole.

[Jim_Kennedy]

David,

The yardage was ca. 360 overall; about 200 yards from the tee to the crossing road in the first fairway(on the right), and around 250 to the center of the second fairway(on the left).

[BCrosby]

Jim -

The Emmet hole is fascinating. A sort of Double Bottle with all sorts of playing choices, even before you know anything about the fw contours. A reminder of how much Emmet is under appreciated.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

Kinloch's "bottle" hole looks pretty good.

Is there any elevation at the green ?

[George_Bahto]

Patrick wrote: George Bahto,

Since the highly touted results at ECE have become more widespread, have you been contacted about restoring ECW ?

Also, how much more work would you like to do at The Knoll ? I think they have already added a bit to the 2nd tee; new tee on#11, a bit of length on #14 (I think itz done); great new back tee on #15
 
some new tees have already been added as per my tee-plan and hopefully a few more will be added, like the back tees on #8 - #9 - #16 and #18

And could you identify it ?  Pat, there is nothing more to do on the course itself, it is back to the original Banks design with no new architect's footprints added !!!


* * *

Essex County West (Francis Byrne) now belongs to the Essex County Park Commission along with Weequaic (sic) and Branch Brook. They finished a project of modernization and drainage repair at those courses. I was asked if I wanted to be involved but declined because they were not thinking about return the West course to what Banks built. The course "looks" nice but is not what it was meant to be. That course, if returned to exactly what was built, would stand as one of NJ's best. Too many alterations over the years, even by the home club when they owned it.

At his point, I would only want to work on meaningful restorations, or as with Old Macdonald, a new course.

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