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Brent Hutto

Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2011, 08:03:49 AM »
Steve,

With respect, I'd suggest that you forgo the mad scramble itenerary next time you get to visit over there. My first trip was a bit like that, although in truth I "only" played six courses over twelve days plus walked Royal St. George's as a spectator several times in between my own playing days. On three subsequent trips I've cut back a little more each time.

Second trip was five courses over 11 days. Third trip was four courses over eight days and last year I was in England for a week and played just four courses and to avoid "windshield time" I spent the entire week in one B&B, save a night at the airport immediately before a morning departure.

I think it's best to take on faith that one or more of the course you'll encounter on each trip has the potential to be just "great" but only if you fully experience it. Squeezing in a round at Birkdale on a day you're also playing somewhere else, spending five hours on the road and checking in and out of your lodgings is not that much different than squeezing in a quick 18 at any other course in the world. You've got to at least give it a chance to show what makes it special, if indeed it proves to be special to you.

PS Next time I get to visit the UK (2012? 2013? who knows...) I'd like nothing better than to make my way straight off to either Dornoch/Brora, Ganton or back to the southeast coast and play two or three courses at least twice each over a week or so.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 08:06:07 AM by Brent Hutto »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2011, 08:16:13 AM »
I've played a lot of the top courses in the UK, but I have a hard time putting them in my lists of great.

Really?
Even if you can't remember the individual holes (which shocks me too),
didn't you at least acknowledge greatness at the time?

I have a hard time bestowing greatness on many courses outside the UK and Ireland........
Can you honestly remember more from Winged Foot than North Berwick?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2011, 08:25:32 AM »
Jud T,  Pinehurst over Pebble Beach and Riviera?


Clearly it's a marginal call.  Riviera without the Kikuyu makes it.  As discussed ad nausea here, Pebble has a few all-world holes and a few too many pedestrian holes to be a no-brainer in my book.  As for Pinehurst I'm taking a bit of a leap that the current renovation puts it back squarely over the bar (as I haven't seen it yet)...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2011, 08:53:42 AM »
Jud...

You are spot on regarding the "new" #2.  It is crazy good!!

And for what it is worth, here are the courses I've played that I'd say are truly great...

The Old Course
The Golf Club
Pinehurst #2
Sand Hills
Nat'l  Golf Links of America
Kiawah Ocean  Course
Muirfield
Shinnecock Hills


« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 08:55:20 AM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2011, 09:09:23 AM »
Brent - you are right. Our last trip over the pond to Ireland we did that. If we played 36 holes in a day it was two rounds on the same course instead of driving between courses (e.g. we did Birkdale and Liverpool in the same day).

Jeff - I love golf in the UK. I would play the rest of my golf on links courses if I could. I don't think it's a deficiency in the courses as it was in me being able to have things stand out in my mind my first few trips. Certainly at the time I appreciated the courses very much, but putting them into the great category is another level altogether. I'm not saying any of those courses aren't great, but I need to play some of them again for me to put them in that list. More and more though the courses that stick out on my four trips are Crail, Cruden Bay, Dornoch, Prestwick, North Berwick. For some reason these courses hold a greater place in my mind than Troon, Turnberry, Liverpool, etc. I love to figure out what it is. I've never been to Winged Foot. I was at North Berwick 10 years ago at the age of 26 on my first trip to Scotland before I even knew about GCA. So my antennae weren't up as much as they would be now.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2011, 09:20:34 AM »
Here's a question for you all:

Are you more inclined to deem a course is "great" if has no weak links or flaws?.... Or are you more likely to determine it is great for outstanding elements, even if some other individual elements / holes are anything but?

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2011, 09:26:12 AM »
I'm certainly more inclined to deem it great if it has no flaws. Aren't there a lot of courses but for a couple of flaws they would obviously be great to everyone? Wouldn't be devaluing great then if all of those courses were great despite their flaws? If a course is deemed by the vast majority to have no flaws clearly it is great. But, if a course has a significant faction of people who find flaws in it (perhaps even different flaws) then how can it be great when there are others that have none?

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2011, 09:35:20 AM »
Cary,
Augusta is great without its history.  There are amazing holes out there and the property is fantastic.  All the face lifting and tree adding is tough to deal with but my guess is that will revert too.  Wouldn't it be amazing if C&C were asked to pull off at angc what they did at #2?  Doubt it will happen.  #2 is also great in my view.  Wish I had an opinion on Seminole but haven't had the privilege.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2011, 09:43:29 AM »
Steve,

I guess I meant no obvious flaws in the whole yet few outstanding moments... I should have made that clearer

Ally

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2011, 09:53:20 AM »
I'm sure that everyone on this board has a lot awesome courses that they've played that just aren't quite "great enough" for some reason or another.  The ones that are great enough for me from my experiences in alphabetical order include:

The Golf Club
Kiawah
Merion
Oakmont
Old Macdonald
Pacific Dunes
Seminole

The first one left out....Oakland Hills South

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2011, 09:58:19 AM »
Steve,

I guess I meant no obvious flaws in the whole yet few outstanding moments... I should have made that clearer

Ally

Sorry I didn't pick that up as it is an entirely different question. My answer changes to yes on this - a course can have no obvious flaws with few outstanding moments and be great. I don't think Pinehurst #2 has the outstanding moments that PV does but I still consider it great. It's a quite subtle course but the strategy is magnificient and that strategy is more easily seen with recent renovation.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2011, 10:02:01 AM »
One I'm debating in my mind at the moment is Camargo - excellent routing, great movement in the greens, fantastic conditioning, wonderful template holes with a unique Redan, very good Eden, and wonderful Short green. I can't think of any specific reason to keep it off the great list but there is something keeping me from putting it in the PV/TOC/#2 class.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2011, 10:03:17 AM »
Here's a question for you all:

Are you more inclined to deem a course is "great" if has no weak links or flaws?.... Or are you more likely to determine it is great for outstanding elements, even if some other individual elements / holes are anything but?

Ally

Absolutely a course can have flaws and be great.  To me, originality/uniqueness can carry a course - hence the reason North Berwick is great despite a few very average holes.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2011, 10:10:57 AM »
Here's a question for you all:

Are you more inclined to deem a course is "great" if has no weak links or flaws?.... Or are you more likely to determine it is great for outstanding elements, even if some other individual elements / holes are anything but?

Ally

Absolutely a course can have flaws and be great.  To me, originality/uniqueness can carry a course - hence the reason North Berwick is great despite a few very average holes.  

Ciao

Sean,

I understand it can be great and have flaws. Which course doesn't?... I should modify my question...

When considering "great", do you place more emphasis on a coures which provides an outstanding whole (with few outstanding individual elements) or on a course that provides a number of outstanding individual elements (or holes) with a number of flaws (weakish holes) thrown in?

I ask because I struggle with this question myself...

"Great" is a difficult word to pin down when it comes to golf courses... I am more inclined to widen the categorisation than narrow it...

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2011, 10:28:21 AM »
Here's a question for you all:

Are you more inclined to deem a course is "great" if has no weak links or flaws?.... Or are you more likely to determine it is great for outstanding elements, even if some other individual elements / holes are anything but?

Ally

Absolutely a course can have flaws and be great.  To me, originality/uniqueness can carry a course - hence the reason North Berwick is great despite a few very average holes.  

Ciao

Sean,

I understand it can be great and have flaws. Which course doesn't?... I should modify my question...

When considering "great", do you place more emphasis on a coures which provides an outstanding whole (with few outstanding individual elements) or on a course that provides a number of outstanding individual elements (or holes) with a number of flaws (weakish holes) thrown in?

I ask because I struggle with this question myself...

"Great" is a difficult word to pin down when it comes to golf courses... I am more inclined to widen the categorisation than narrow it...

Ally

Someone once told me that a genius can often be quite average in everything he does except in one discipline - where he is brilliant.  We can either celebrate that brilliance and label the man as better than average as an all-rounder.  I am in your camp, keep the "definition" as wide as the Rio Grande.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2011, 01:30:49 PM »
Wouldn't it be amazing if C&C were asked to pull off at angc what they did at #2?

John...YES!!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2011, 01:56:52 PM »
Steve - I'm pleased you are starting to experience our courses rather than just play them. A couple of weeks ago I had one of my greatest experiences in golf:- a 36 hole foursomes match at Prestwick and lunch around the wonderful long table with the pictures of 160 years worth of Captains looking over us. Prestwick may not be the worlds finest course but it is a true great with masses of history and something few courses can produce and thats charm.
Cave Nil Vino

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2011, 03:21:10 PM »
The next time I come over I won't to play in one of the open amateur events at Dornoch or something. Basically spend a week playing the same place.

I really like Prestwick. I'd probably like it even more now.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2011, 03:31:29 PM »
I'm a bit surprised to see so many with Kiawah as a no-brainer...might have to get that back on the radar.....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Bourgeois

Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2011, 08:07:53 PM »
Certainly Great

CPC
Muirfield
TOC (the real one)
Royal St Georges
Royal Dornoch

Very good but I'm not sure I'd say great, borderline:

Prestwick
Royal Cinque Ports
Silloth
Yale
MPCC Shore
Royal Liverpool
Carnoustie
Berkshire Red
Lawsonia Links
Ganton

Very good indeed but not great:

North Berwick West Links
Cruden Bay
Rye
Swinley Forest
Olympia Fields North
Charles River CC


Well done, Mark. Not sure if you noticed the typo...

Certainly Great

Ganton
CPC
Muirfield
TOC (the real one)
Royal St Georges
Royal Dornoch

Very good but I'm not sure I'd say great, borderline:

Prestwick
Royal Cinque Ports
Silloth
Yale
MPCC Shore
Royal Liverpool
Carnoustie
Berkshire Red
Lawsonia Links

Very good indeed but not great:

North Berwick West Links
Cruden Bay
Rye
Swinley Forest
Olympia Fields North
Charles River CC


There.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2011, 08:09:47 PM »
Steve Kline:

Carnegie Shield in Dornoch each August.

It needs another GCAer's name on it!

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2011, 08:30:43 PM »
Jud
On the ocean course,  it really is cool. Maybe next time try playing it early when the wind is there but not a bear and don't play it too long. The s shaped routing will make the wind change -- hopefully with, against, with --  and the touch holes like 3 and 13 will shine more.  I think it's pretty under thought of.  The removal of some cover shows more dune and adds better off fairway recovery too.   

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2011, 09:00:56 PM »
Kyle-
Did you play Melbourne while you were in Australia?

Nothing in Scotland either, Kyle?


Royal Dornoch and Royal Melbourne West are right there as well, but the courses I listed are my absolute favorites. If I relax my definition of true greatness, a lot more courses join the list (Fisher's Island, Friar's Head, etc., etc.).
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2011, 09:25:33 PM »
Got back from a car ride and happened to play the Pussycat Dolls CD and one of the llyrics remimded me of the "whip it out" thread ww.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42584.0.html.
Here's my entry from there and nothing has changed since last year, and this year is also unlikely.
My first tier
1.Cypress Point                   Oakmont                Pebble Beach                  Pacific Dunes          St Andrews (Old)
6.Royal Dornoch                  Carnoustie              Melbourne (West)          Crystal Downs         Muirfield
11.Ballybunion (Old)              Kingston Heath      Pinehurst #2                   Prairie Dunes           Turnberry (Ailsa)
16. Kiawah Island(Ocean)      TPC Sawgrass        Casa de Campo (TotD)      Olympic (Lake)        Ballyneal
21.Royal Birkdale                  Sunningdale (Old)   Royal Lytham & St Annes   Old Macdonald           North Berwick (West)

My second tier 25 (not necessarily in order)
Prestwick                New South Wales              Woodhall Spa             Bandon Dunes        Kingsbarns  
Ganton                      Royal Adelaide                 Harbour Town               Chambers Bay           Royal Liverpool  (Hoylake)  
Pasatiempo         Royal St Georges          Rock Creek Cattle Company   Clear Creek Tahoe    Sagebrush
Rustic Canyon       Monterey Peninsula (Shore)        Bandon Trails            Pronghorn (Fazio)       Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow)

Dropped from second tier 8/22/10:
Waterville             Royal Porthcawl                  Desert Forest              Royal Troon
Red: Added 8/22/10
Green Dropped from 1st tier 8/22/10

I'll say the top thirteen (an even baker's dozen) are great
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 09:41:58 PM by Pete_Pittock »

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Many Greats Have You Played and What Are They?
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2011, 03:34:03 AM »
Mark B,

Sharp eyes.  That's much better, thanks.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

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