[Sean_A]

The thread about the word "great" and how it applies to golf courses got me wondering about how many great courses are out there.  We usually start with a number (Best of Lists) and then try to find enough courses to match it.  I often lament this idea because it leads to many courses being listed which are in fact no way special.  

Below are my selections for GREAT (I guess there are more than 30!) which I know well enough.  I also listed some other courses to create further context.

GREAT

Ballybunion Old Course
County Sligo
Kiawah TOC
Lahinch
Merion
North Berwick
Prestwick
Royal County Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush Dunluce
Royal St Georges
Rye
St Enodoc
St Andrews TOC

VERY CLOSE CALL, BUT THE WRONG SIDE OF GREATNESS

Enniscrone
Formby
Muirfield
Old Town Club
Oakland Hills South
Pinehurst #2
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Birkdale
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Liverpool
St Georges Hill
Swinley Forest
Sunningdale New
The Island
Woodhall Spa
Woking

Highly Ranked and Well Known Courses Which Fall Short

Addington
Burnham & Berrow
Carnoustie
Cruden Bay
Princes
Royal Porthcawl
Tobacco Road
Turnberry
Yeamans Hall
Hunstanton
Co Louth
Pine Needles
Royal Troon
Royal Lytham
The European Club
Gullane #1
Machrihanish
Harlech
Saunton East
Notts
Carne
Southerndown
Nairn
Aberdovey
Westward Ho!
Tralee

Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

Point of thread, Mr. Arble?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Near as I can tell, the point is he has yet to play Ganton. That or he is trying to Foulpointe us with this talk of "Kiawah TOC."

[Ronald Montesano]

Well played, Mark. I like the "TOC" touch, as well. Gently misleading, it is.

[Brent Hutto]

I'll let "great" serve as shorthand for a category of courses that I've always thought of, more verbosely, as "The group of courses that are all so good there is no way to say which of them is better than another". I've played fewer than a handful but they fairly definitely stand in a category alone, by my reckoning. I'll list them in the order which I encountered them.

The Ocean Course (Kiawah)
Cypress Point Club
Royal St. George's

and two "possibly great" courses that I can't be sure about

Royal Dornoch, which I'll need to play a time or two with a working golf swing
Ganton, which I have seen but not played

There are also a few other near-greats that I just can't honestly say are the equal to the three listed above: Royal Birkdale, Spyglass Hill, Royal Cinque Ports, possibly even the newly renovated Pine Needles (I know that is not a widely shared opinion).

[Ally Mcintosh]

I know that in Alwoodley, I just played a new "great" at the weekend....

I have yet to play a golf course that I haven't found fault with though... Maybe that makes me a glass half empty personality... Or maybe it just confirms that there is no such thing as "perfect"...

I have played many courses where I wouldn't change a thing however...

[Steve Kline]

For me the "greats" are courses that are hands down better than the vast majority of courses I have played and nearly everyone else would agree. Here's my list off the top of my head (and I'm probably forgetting some):

Pinehurst #2
Ballyneal
Riviera
Pine Valley
TOC

I have played a lot of other really, really good courses. Many in the UK that are close but have some weaknesses. Some, if I played them more and understood them better could be elevated to great.

[Jud_T]

NO QUESTION

TOC
RCD
Ballybunion Old
Lahinch
Pac Dunes
Pinehurst #2

VERY CLOSE CALL

Bethpage Black
Yale
Prestwick
Riviera
Winged Foot West
Pebble Beach
Kingsley
Lost Dunes
Portmarnock
Carnoustie
Chicago Golf
Shoreacres
Skokie
Lawsonia
Fishers Island

I'll leave the other categories out so as not to get into another pissing match with the scratchers w/attitude...

[Mark Pearce]

Good Lord, El Gringo, that's raher on the generous side.

For me:

Certainly Great

CPC
Muirfield
TOC (the real one)
Royal St Georges
Royal Dornoch

Very good but I'm not sure I'd say great, borderline:

Prestwick
Royal Cinque Ports
Silloth
Yale
MPCC Shore
Royal Liverpool
Carnoustie
Berkshire Red
Lawsonia Links
Ganton

Very good indeed but not great:

North Berwick West Links
Cruden Bay
Rye
Swinley Forest
Olympia Fields North
Charles River CC

These lists aren't comprehensive except the first, great one, but indicative of where I think courses lie.  Surprisingly it seems you're more generous with the word great than me.

[Mac Plumart]

1...

Red Ledges


 

[Peter Pallotta]

Love them enough and for long enough, I imagine, and they all would be great, even the ones, maybe especially the ones, that originally seemed to Fall Short. That's because I was right, on the other thread, i.e. that greatness is uniqueness humbly manifested. And the more time we spend together in charity, the more the uniqueness of 'the other' shines through.

Sean - I have played only one ranked golf course. I remain grateful for the opportunity given me, and i enjoyed every minute of the experience and the golf course.

P

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

Every time I tried to get Pete Dye to vote on what were the best courses in the world, he would say that there were about 40 really great ones, and he didn't see the point of trying to choose between those; and that he also didn't see the point of trying to rank the ones below them.  So you might be on the same page as Mr. Dye.

I kind of know what he's talking about; at least, when I am forced to rank courses into the top 50 or top 100, I can never seem to get quite enough courses that I feel belong in either category -- and it's not because I haven't played most of the good candidates.  Maybe I just know that someday, 50 or 100 years from now, there will really be 100 great courses, and I'm leaving room for the ones which haven't been built yet and only voting for the ones which will still belong then.

[Joe Bausch]

Sean - I have played only one ranked golf course. I remain grateful for the opportunity given me, and i enjoyed every minute of the experience and the golf course.

P

P2, were you with Cirba the day he played Shore Gate?

 

[Kyle Henderson]

This is the short list of unequivocally (IMHO) great courses that I’ve played. There are many others that I think are quite stellar, but I think these set the bar.

Ballyneal
Clear Creek Tahoe
Barnbougle Dunes                          
Cypress Point  
Pacific Dunes
Sand Hills

[Peter Pallotta]

JB - no, I wasn't. In fact, that bum didn't even CALL me about that!  I was referring to Crystal Downs  (which I played without even TELLING Cirba I was going!! )

P

[Kalen Braley]

If I'm following my own rules....of a Doak 9 or higher in terms of how I would rate them....only 4.

1)  CPC
2)  RCCC
3)  Ballyneal
4)  Pacific Dunes.

Others that are close, but not quite a 9 in my book.

MPCC Shore
Pasatiempo - This one was very close with the amazing back 9...
Wine Valley
Gozzer Ranch

[cary lichtenstein]

The truly great ones standout from the rest by a big margin. But great is in the eyes and minds of different players, so the lists will necessarily differ.

For some, difficulty like Oakmont is supreme, for others minimalism is supreme, for me, topography, uniqueness, a multiple textured colored pallet are a big  part of the equation.

Is Augusta great without it's history? Seminole? Pinehurst #2?

I for one take history, lore out of the equation.

I would start with Pine Valley...

[Tim Leahy]

Jud T,  Pinehurst over Pebble Beach and Riviera?

Here's mine:

Greats:

Olympic Club
Pebble Beach
Spyglass Hill
Riviera
LACC-North
Kapalua Plantation
Stone Eagle
Sherwood CC

[Carl Nichols]

This is the short list of unequivocally (IMHO) great courses that I’ve played. There are many others that I think are quite stellar, but I think these set the bar.

Ballyneal
Clear Creek Tahoe
Barnbougle Dunes                          
Cypress Point  
Pacific Dunes
Sand Hills

Kyle-
Did you play Melbourne while you were in Australia?

[Sean_A]

The most interesting thing I found in my list of Unquestionables is there are only three parkland courses and of those only Merion really wowed me.  

Mark - perhaps I am too generous.  Even so, there aren't all that many.  While I don't bounce around the world crossing names off a list, I don't exactly target the hum drum courses to play.  In any case, you are probably right.  To be great there shouldn't be any niggling doubts.  So I will amend my list.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

The courses I would class as "greats" among those I have played, and for me a great must have brilliant architecture, variety, conditioning and that je nais se quois that a special golf course or woman has that you never can really articulate:

Pine Valley
Royal Melbourne (West)
Riviera
Fishers Island
Barnbougle Dunes
The Old Course
Royal Dornoch
North Berwick West Links
Royal St George's
Walton Heath (Old)
West Sussex

I really want to include Swinley there, but something keeps it out. Likewise Deal, Kingston Heath and Royal Zoute.

[David_Elvins]

Kyle-
Did you play Melbourne while you were in Australia?

Nothing in Scotland either, Kyle?

[Ben Jarvis]

To me, a great golf course is one that you would be happy to play for the rest of your life. It's a course that provides strategic interest that reveals different shots and strategies of how to play it the more one plays. Unfortunately I'm not yet a well traveled golfer, but here is my list to date.

1. Royal Melbourne (West)
2. Kingston Heath
3. Barnbougle Dunes
4. New South Wales

Unlike Scott, I rate Kingston Heath as great. Dan Souter did a marvelous job in routing the course on such a small and relatively flat property, not to mention MacKenzie's fairway and greenside bunkering. ‘Never yet have I advised upon a course where, owing to the excellence of design and construction work, the problems have been so simple.’ Dr Alister MacKenzie. The course must be great for MacKenzie to be quoted saying that.

For me, Royal Melbourne West outdoes KH due to the topography and simply, it is the most enjoyable golf course I have played and one that I will never tire of playing.

With my recent trip to California and Oregan, I suspect that Cypress Point Club and Pacific Dunes will be added to the list with Pebble Beach and Pasatiempo as maybes.

[Mark Chaplin]

For me greatness is really a measure of playing experience. Ask "average Joe" in the UK and he may say Wentworth West or the Belfry. I've been lucky enough to play several of the top 10s on each of three continents so my greats have changed considerably from 30 years ago when the local private course was my great.

[Steve Kline]

Someone mentioned Kyle having no courses from Scotland. I've played a lot of the top courses in the UK, but I have a hard time putting them in my lists of great. While I've gotten better at it over the years, it is hard for me to remember much about the holes on these courses. I think the primary reasons are the dramatically different landscape on a links course and the fact that I'm cramming 6-10 different courses in 6-7 days of playing. But I can't put Birkdale, Liverpool, Troon, or Turnberry on my lists of greats. I have played Prestwick, North Berwick, and Royal Dornoch. For me they are closer to great than the big boys but I'm not sure they are quite there. I honestly can't remember much about Prestwick it went by so fast. North Berwick I played once a long time ago on my first trip to Scotland and couldn't describe a single on the course to you (see my earlier points). I remember some of the holes at Dornoch (especially the early ones for some reason) but there I did not care for 7 (is that the flattish long par 4 on top of the ridge), 8 ( - is that the following severe down hiller) and 17. I felt those holes were inferior to the rest of the course (the two downhillers being too similar) and kept the course from being great. I have yet to play Muirfield, Royal County Down or any courses around London.

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