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Mark_Rowlinson

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The word great
« on: June 07, 2011, 01:43:41 PM »
What qualities does a golf course need to be called great?

Peter Pallotta

Re: The word great
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2011, 01:50:40 PM »
Love it, Mark! A big, open-ended question.  Here's my take, offered after not even a moment of reflection:

A course is great for the same reason you and I are (or, at least, could be) great: because it is unique, and in having the courage to honour that uniqueness (its own time and place and pedigree/history and ethos) best serves the purpose for which it came into being, and does so boldly and without casting a nervous sideways glance at other courses or looking back in longing or regret at what might've been. It is, in short, itself; sui generis.

Peter

 

Steve Burrows

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Re: The word great
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2011, 03:02:20 PM »
In Beyond Good and Evil, Neitzsche wrote, "In the end it must be as it is and always has been: great things remain for the great, abysses for the profound, nuances and shudders for the refined, and, in brief, all that is rare for the rare."  His point seems to be that words such as "great" are thrown about far too liberally.  But, quite simply, not everything can be "great."  There must also be a place for the abjectly bad.  Yes?

Having said that, I personally believe that "greatness" is most certainly subjective (for golf courses, literature, cinema, music or otherwise). Indeed, Pine Valley may be "great" for many, but this is not to say that the local municipal course can not be "great" for others.   Ultimately, yours is a difficult question to answer.  Moreover, labeling some courses as "great" at the expense of others runs the risk of marginalizing the experiences and opinions of those people who may enjoy the "lesser" place, which to me seems unproductive (it may be obvious by now that I am completely averse to the rankings put forth by various publications).
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Mac Plumart

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Re: The word great
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2011, 04:09:25 PM »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The word great
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2011, 04:39:13 PM »
I had a very fine history teacher that told me if you can't explain it you don't understand it.  I am fine with that concerning greatness.  I am also fine knowing greatness when I see it even if I can't tell you why.  I would say for "greatness" to have any common meaning a canon of great courses has to be agreed upon by a significant percentage of folks who would know enough to know greatness.  For sure "great" gets tossed around far too much - including by many on this  board.  I can honestly say I have played less than 30 great courses. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The word great
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2011, 04:43:06 PM »
In Doak Scale terms.

I'm thinking by definition it has to be at least a solid 9!!

"9. An outstanding course—certainly one of the best in the world—with no weaknesses in regard to condition, length or poor holes. You should see this course sometime in your life."

Anything less than or equal to 8....ain't great!  ;)

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The word great
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2011, 04:51:59 PM »
I would say for "greatness" to have any common meaning a canon of great courses has to be agreed upon by a significant percentage of folks who would know enough to know greatness.

Sean...I agree, but I think I would add in that they need to be considered great for an extended period of time.  I think it is clear that Pine Valley, Merion, Royal Melbourne, Cypress Point, and Pebble Beach are great.  And a significant percentage of folks have concurred that they are great for a significant number of years. 

BUT, is Ballyneal great...is Sand Hills great...is Old Sandwich great...is Castle Stuart great.  I say this only because when I looked back on the Top 100 lists of years past, some course have shot right onto those lists only to fall off them over time.  Perhaps in their day, they were considered great...but time has suggested they were in fact, not great.

Any thoughts on this?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The word great
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2011, 05:26:03 PM »
Mac

I share your caution, but the difference between being great and being in the canon is perhaps what time provides.  Like all of these sorts of deals, once the canon is exhausted the measure of greatness is even more reliant on the eye of the beholder.  So I guess a load depends on whos eyes one trusts.  Of course, most trust their own eyes as much if not more than even the opinions of trusted persons. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David_Elvins

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Re: The word great
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 12:26:43 AM »
What qualities does a golf course need to be called great?
A lazy publicist. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The word great
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2011, 12:42:20 AM »
1.  It needs to be a cool place
2.  The holes need to be interesting for a very wide level of playing ability
3.  Hazards need to be memorable and tempt
4.  It needs to be a pleasant walk
5.  It needs history
6.  It must convey a sense of being in natural
7.  It must defy convention in some manner

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The word great
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2011, 08:00:37 AM »
Hazards need to be memorable and tempt

This is a darn good one.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The word great
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2011, 08:06:52 AM »
Hazards need to be memorable and tempt

This is a darn good one.

Which begs the question, how can 100, 80 or 60 hazards be memorable and tempting?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The word great
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2011, 04:51:24 PM »
A truly great course. You would be driven to with a gunny sack over your head. No advance knowledge or bullshit about anything.

You have an excellent caddy who will only give you yardage and help with reading the greens, but nothing else.

You must be thrilled with the course early on and it just keeps getting better

If u have to think about it, it's not great

By the9th hole you should be in wow land
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jim Johnson

Re: The word great
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2011, 12:35:54 AM »
As you're walking off the 18th green you're on your way over to the 1st tee to play another round.

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