[Tom Yost]

Had heard rumblings about this for a while.  

Karsten Golf Course's days could be numbered

by Doug Haller - Jun. 7, 2011 02:54 PM
The Arizona Republic

Karsten Golf Course's days as the home of Arizona State's golf teams soon might come to an end.

Earlier this year, ASU informed the Collegiate Golf Foundation, the legal entity that leases the course from the Arizona Board of Regents, that the university had launched a feasibility study for the course's redevelopment into other commercial uses to assist in the renovation of Sun Devil Stadium.

As a result, the university concluded it was not in position to extend the golf course's lease when it expires June 30, 2012.

Fred Homes, president of the foundation, said the foundation first heard rumors of ASU's intentions several years ago. Eventually, he figured the university would grow so much that it would need the course land for other developmental purposes. But each time the topic was raised, Homes said ASU told him that everything was on the table, but nothing had been finalized.

"As the years went by the rumor mill still persisted and we would ask again, but (receive) the same responses," Homes said.

Virgil Renzulli, ASU's Vice President for Public Affairs, said that's still the case. Over the past year, the university has announced lofty plans for an athletic facilities district that could stretch from Tempe Marketplace to the city center. The Arizona Legislature already has passed a bill creating the mechanism for such a vision.

In November, ASU president Michael Crow said ASU plans to lease land the university owns near downtown Tempe to developers and then collect development fees in lieu of taxes.

"(But nothing has been) decided on exactly what will be in the district that we could develop," Renzulli said. "One of the things that had been mentioned back when the Arizona Cardinals were looking for a new stadium was Karsten Golf Course, or part of Karsten. But again, everything is on the table. It has to be."

Karsten, financed through private funds, was built by the Sun Angel Foundation, opening in 1989. The Collegiate Golf Foundation leases the Karsten facilities, which includes a clubhouse and player's facility, from the board of regents. OB Sports handles the daily management. Homes said before the economic downturn the course probably was worth $160 million.

"There have been no public funds used to develop or operate the golf course for 22 years, it is self-sustaining," Homes said.

If Karsten is lost, the golf teams likely would play at other courses in the area. In the Pac-12, ASU is one of four schools to have a university-owned course on campus, joining Oregon State, Washington State and Stanford.

"Obviously, a big recruiting tool is having a golf course on campus," said ASU men's golf coach Randy Lein, adding it played a factor in luring Phil Mickelson to Tempe. "If we lose that, we'll just go back to where we were before we had it. We'll make it work."

Sun Devil Stadium's condition cannot be ignored. Although it's safe, the stadium, which has hosted ASU football since 1958, has just about a decade left in its current state, Renzulli said. Structural and electrical repairs are needed. ASU also would like to put in better seats with better sight lines as well as upgrade restroom and concession facilities. Renzulli said a price tag for a complete outhaul, one that would make the stadium competitive among its peers, likely would be north of $250 million.

It is the centerpiece of the university's athletic-district vision. The goal is to turn Tempe into an "amateur sports mecca," Renzulli said, but first ASU must address the school's bigger facilities.

"This is really kind of long term," Renzulli said. "The only way we can continue to play football in Tempe is through this mechanism of developing a land that the university has so that we have a revenue source, because otherwise, there is no revenue source."



http://www.azcentral.com/sports/golf/articles/2011/06/07/20110607karsten-golf-course-asu-future.html

[Mike Sweeney]

This course will always be a target of GCA snobbery, but I have a soft spot for it as I spent the good part of an Arizona summer teeing off early in the morning at Karsten before my client and the heat woke up.

Power lines, industrial factories and a Phil Mickelson trophy room, the place has/had more character than 90% of the courses out there.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I played there this past winter after a long hiatus. Very tight course with the Dye trademark- 18 with water on left. Actually, 9 is on the other side of the same water. Nice pro shop with a lot of ASU merchandise. For the $50 senior rate in prime season, it was worth it.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I just read the comments to the article. One was very interesting: "Word on the street is that ASU will buy Papago."  This makes sense to me. It's nearby their Tempe campus and is a good course for their nationally prominent golf teams. It would also solve the current management and lack of club house situations.

[Tom Yost]

This course will always be a target of GCA snobbery, but I have a soft spot for it as I spent the good part of an Arizona summer teeing off early in the morning at Karsten before my client and the heat woke up.

Power lines, industrial factories and a Phil Mickelson trophy room, the place has/had more character than 90% of the courses out there.

Discounting the peripheral "scenery," I find the course to be interesting and not without some quirk and character. Not something I want to play regularly though. In particular, I'm not fond of the two cape holes (9 & 18) that flank the lake left and right.  This style of hole seems to be a "Dye signature."

[Tom Yost]

I just read the comments to the article. One was very interesting: "Word on the street is that ASU will buy Papago."  This makes sense to me. It's nearby their Tempe campus and is a good course for their nationally prominent golf teams. It would also solve the current management and lack of club house situations.

I've heard this rumor as well.  Seems unlikely that the City would outright sell the course, but perhaps some operation agreement could be arranged...  ASU would likely have the $$ to finish the renovation.   ASU outsources the mangement of Karsten  (currently OB Sports).

[Matthew Petersen]

ASU buying Papago seems like a great solution for both ASU, who would get a quality course close to campus, and for the city of Phoenix who has just made an absolute mess of their Papago dealings.

With that said, go Cats.

[JC Urbina]

Tom,

Thanks for the info, interesting news for me.

I spent a very long year on site as design associate for The Karsten Course. Hard to believe they would give up the land but it wouldn't surprise me.  I remember when we were working on the 12th hole ( The Redan ) one of the site engineers kept reminding me to pay attention to the location of the tees when I was trying to get the alignment right for the shot.  He told me that the future plan was to build a lake adjacent to the 12th hole.  I looked out to the north at this barren dry wash called the Salt River and said, yeah right.

Several years later they have this inflatable dam that holds back water and they have sail boats and people out on the water just as the engineer had predicted, so nothing surprises me in that area of Tempe.

I remember when we were building the 16th hole a par 3, we had the back tees at over 250 yards hitting to one of the smaller greens on the property.  Pete turned to me and said these kids will make this hole look easy at the distance they are hitting the ball, that was back in 1988.

 Nice to see Fred Homes name mentioned I met with him on a regular basis to give the foundation updates on the progress of the golf course.  I also had the pleasure of driving Karsten around the golf course  during construction explaining what we were building.  I wander how much he really understood and if he had the  ability to visualize a finished golf hole.   I was in the company of a REAL genius.

[Mark Smolens]

While perhaps not an architectural gem, I've always found Karsten to be a fun place to play. Wonder if they still have the four bag golf carts? That was always a fun way to play with my folks -- they could ride while I walked, but i didn't have to lug the clubs or push them in a three wheeler.

ASU taking over Papago could be nothing but a positive for that facility.

[Bill_McBride]

Discounting the peripheral "scenery," I find the course to be interesting and not without some quirk and character. Not something I want to play regularly though. In particular, I'm not fond of the two cape holes (9 & 18) that flank the lake left and right.  This style of hole seems to be a "Dye signature."

Nicklaus learned that trick from Dye, I guess, when he built Grand Cypress near Orlando.  9 and 18 do the same to the point of sharing a double green.

[Doug Wright]

Only played it once but glad I did under these circumstances. A number of fun holes there and decent but not over the top Pete Dye challenges.

[Anthony Butler]

I remember when we were building the 16th hole a par 3, we had the back tees at over 250 yards hitting to one of the smaller greens on the property.  Pete turned to me and said these kids will make this hole look easy at the distance they are hitting the ball, that was back in 1988.

That hole was crazy when the wind came in from the White Mountains, it was fine short par 4 with a 3iron and 3/4 sand wedge, otherwise it was a 230 yd carry dead into a 25mph wind. Not even the US Open has one of those.

[jonathan_becker]

After 12pm in the middle of the summer, you can zip around ASU in a cart for $20.  What a deal!

For all the shit and criticism that this place gets, it's still a fun place to play.  I played it quite a few times as a kid and will always have a soft spot for it.

[Dave Givnish]

ASU can more of a profit by having a developer build new dorms on the land.  Papago is close but so is Ken McDonald.  Interesting question is whether it would be cheaper to renovate McDonald than it would be to build a new clubhouse at Papago.  The situation at Papago is going to get more difficult - and maybe an ASU takeover is just what the city needs.

[JC Urbina]

Dave,

I remember the temporary clubhouse at ASU, it served as a nice facility to get golfers on the course and served a good hotdog and refreshments.  That could be the model for Papago.

I remember Ken Mcdonald golf course, do you really think that would be a good alternative to Papago?

jonathan,

The golf course had some really tough holes to navigate, a few of my favorites, 4,6,9 and the last three holes could be a real stiff test depending on pin locations.

[Forrest Richardson]

I would not look for Karsten to close anytime soon....It will take real estate a long while to recover enough to see ASU lease off any of this lakefront land. I would look for all of the land around the course to be developed first. In 2009 we made some minor adjustments to a few tees and the 11th fairway. At #11 we had to tie-in a long slope to a huge pad that had been graded to accommodate a live/work condo project...that has gone nowhere since 2009 even though millions were pumped into the grading, drainage and the tweaks to the golf course.

Papago cannot be "sold" because it is patented land from the US Government to the City. The State could lease it, but I doubt it would ever be transferred. Papago makes a lot of sense for ASU because it has length and this is an unfortunate need for college golf in the 2000s. Papago, as many of you know, is another story...but, now it has legs to possible be connected to Karsten and ASU. Locals should also keep their eyes on Rolling Hills...we planned that property (2001-ish) and I can attest that it is some very interesting land for golf. Perhaps better than Papago's terrain.

Ken McDonald was a design of Jack Snyder — who was so severely constrained that it is any wonder the course actually got built...power lines, housing, canals, easements, flood basins, etc.  Jack was always of the opinion that, one day, he might get to improve it and do some of the things he intended but could not due to the loads of issues of the assembled parcels.

[Tom_Doak]

I remember when we were building the 16th hole a par 3, we had the back tees at over 250 yards hitting to one of the smaller greens on the property.  Pete turned to me and said these kids will make this hole look easy at the distance they are hitting the ball, that was back in 1988.

The last time I went out on the course was for a college tournament in 1990 or '91.  I was walking with the Oklahoma State team for a practice round, and their coach, Mike Holder, forbid any of his players from going for the green in the event.  They were all supposed to lay up short and left, and take their 3 or 4 and move on.

[Tom Yost]

Ken McDonald was a design of Jack Snyder — who was so severely constrained that it is any wonder the course actually got built...power lines, housing, canals, easements, flood basins, etc.

Karsten golfers would feel right at home with the nearby power plant and distribution towers.

Kenny Mac is an above average muni layout, albeit scruffily mantained.  Unfortunately, there is no room to stretch it beyond its 6800 yard tips.

An interesting "feature" was added in the past couple of years.  The 11th hole is a par 5 where the tee shot crosses an irrigation canal.  The canal bank is used by recreational walkers and bike riders.  Apparently this was deemed a hazard to the public (after some 30 years in existence) and so the walking path has been enclosed by one-half mile of habitrail-looking fence, and the tee box built up approximately 40 ft in the air.  And to top it off, to protect the golfers from falling off the top of this tee, a 4 ft high chain link fence surrounds three sides of the tee box so from the back of the tee one must negotiate this chute.  It is the biggest city bureaucrat-inspired eyesore I've seen in some time.  Funny though, the guys I was playing with said "It looks cool."

[Michael Whitaker]

Discounting the peripheral "scenery," I find the course to be interesting and not without some quirk and character. Not something I want to play regularly though. In particular, I'm not fond of the two cape holes (9 & 18) that flank the lake left and right.  This style of hole seems to be a "Dye signature."

Nicklaus learned that trick from Dye, I guess, when he built Grand Cypress near Orlando.  9 and 18 do the same to the point of sharing a double green.

Look familiar...

 Karsten 9 &18


Prestwick CC 9 &18 (Surfside Beach, SC)

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