The Golfitectural Apocalypse is nigh: Congo to stimp beyond 14?!

[Mark Bourgeois]

I saw Alex Miller linked to the Mike Davis interview at the four-letter place and that there was discussion on his thread, but this deserves its own mention.

Mike Davis
  (2:23 PM)

We are planning on green speeds between 14 and 14 1/2 on the USGA Stimpmeter. This should be the ideal speed that will allow us to best test the players' skills, yet not lose good quadrants of the greens for hole locations.

Does this mean:
a) Congo has zero going for it architecturally and needs 14?
b) re blowing up the greens for the umpteenth time, the U$GA continues to create its own rota out of publicity-seeking public/quasipublic and privates desperate enough to make the devil's bargain that is the U$ Open circus?
c) hyper-stimping greens is the product of I&B regulatory failure by the U$GA and Exhibit 57 in the case prosecuting the organization for failure to serve as a guardian of the game?
d) all of the above?
e) none of the above?

Bonus: do 14+ greens contribute or detract from a tournament's excitement?

For purposes of this quiz, please assume Davis is not lying.

As always, please support your answers with appropriate logic. Answers without support will receive a zero (0).

You may begin...now.

[jeffwarne]

I saw Alex Miller linked to the Mike Davis interview at the four-letter place and that there was discussion on his thread, but this deserves its own mention.

Mike Davis
  (2:23 PM)

We are planning on green speeds between 14 and 14 1/2 on the USGA Stimpmeter. This should be the ideal speed that will allow us to best test the players' skills, yet not lose good quadrants of the greens for hole locations.

Does this mean:
a) Congo has zero going for it architecturally and needs 14?
b) re blowing up the greens for the umpteenth time, the U$GA continues to create its own rota out of publicity-seeking public/quasipublic and privates desperate enough to make the devil's bargain that is the U$ Open circus?
c) hyper-stimping greens is the product of I&B regulatory failure by the U$GA and Exhibit 57 in the case prosecuting the organization for failure to serve as a guardian of the game?
d) all of the above?
e) none of the above?

Bonus: do 14+ greens contribute or detract from a tournament's excitement?

For purposes of this quiz, please assume Davis is not lying.

As always, please support your answers with appropriate logic. Answers without support will receive a zero (0).

You may begin...now.

He'll stick a few tees on ladies tees and the golf world will proclaim him a set-up genius again.
Plinko at Pebble,...
Bocce at Congo.
14.5 really???

Were the courses(green speeds) Jones, Hogan, Nicklaus (and even Tiger) not proper tests of a golfer's skills??
Are we eliminating slope and therefore angles from the game completely?

[Phil McDade]

He'll stick a few tees on ladies tees and the golf world will proclaim him a set-up genius again.

Best line I've seen on GCA in a long time.

[Randy Thompson]

What a pitty,,,how can anyone be in such a position and have blinders on to how harmful 14.5 green speeds will be at such a visble event. Not likely but would love to see the wind blow a couple of days and they get totally embarrassed and John Nobodyknowsme, wins by ten strokes. I think itīs time the USGA just change the hole size to 2.5 inch and leave the rough, fairway width and greens speed reasonable.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

At 13 on a stimp, a ball will NOT stop rolling when the slope is 4 degrees.

At 14, it's probably 3 degrees

At 14+, it's probably closer to 2 degrees.

That does not take wind into consideration, and wind is a factor.

I have to doubt the stimp speeds being bandied about.

[Ben Sims]

If this is true and accurate, then the USGA has more conformists and "yes-men" than I thought.  What ever happened to critical--or even pragmatic--thinking?  Does it make any sense to have a green stimp at 14+?  Any at all?  What does it prove to the golf world if Congressional's greens roll like a marble counter-top?  And what is it really testing?

There is a club in South Carolina right now that has an overnight crew hand-watering (it might be syringing) the greens at 10p.m. and 4a.m.  How important is it to that club to say they have bentgrass?  It's June and the grass is fighting for survival due to a half dozen nights in the 75-80 degree range.  All for what?

The madness in regards to maintenance expectations in the golf world has to stop.  Has to.   In the "real" world, businesses fail for being that stupid. 

[Alex Miller]

At least Oakmont is an interesting course for the viewer to watch players get punished. I'm preparing myself for one of the less watchable opens for an architecture nut in recent memory. Hopefully the players create some drama; they always do.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark - no logic in my post, just speed.  Rate me please.

Phil - yup, a terrific line by Jeff.  Funny, and it went by very quickly.

Oh, how I wish, if I could wish and make it so, which I can't I know, but if I could, and knew that I could, I would wish that someone, maybe Mr. Davis or maybe someone else, it doesn't really matter in a way, but I guess in another way it does matter, but in any event I would wish -- oh, sorry, I said that already -- that someone would set up a US Open course, or any course actually, as long as it was in the continental united states, such that the green speeds would not be like 12 or 13, or 14, but more like, no, exactly like 5 or 6 or 7, in that range, you know, because in a way I think, actually believe, though I may be wrong, that it is harder to putt today (as maybe it was back then too, I don't know) on slow greens or even more on slower greens than it is on fast ones.  Anyway, that was my point. Thank you for taking the time to read; hope it didn't take you too long to do so.  

Peter

[Sam Morrow]

I don't know what the big deal is, I thought you guys said that Mike Davis knows more about architecture than Rees Jones.

[Jim Nugent]

You guys who know Congressional: can the greens handle those speeds?  If so, seems like they must be real flat. 

[Tom_Doak]

I don't think this will be the first time greens have been played at 14 on the Stimpmeter for a professional event.  It's probably a first for the U.S. Open, because most Opens are played on older courses that have some sharply tilted back-to-front greens where 14 just wouldn't work; but I presume that most of Congressional's greens have been re-worked over the years to the point that 14 is not impossible there.

Does it set a bad example for the rest of the world?  Absolutely.  Will it make the course impossible for these players?  No, I doubt it.  I'd have to agree with Peter, they would have more trouble adjusting to greens at 7 on the Stimpmeter than to greens at 14.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom, Jim, and Pat: they rebuilt these greens in anticipation of the Open (they've got a history of doing this), meaning someone in Far Hills must have seen / blessed the plans. What I take away from this is that leadership all the way up the chain made the conscious and purposeful decision to flatten the greens.

That's the part that kills me: flat greens, now they're not a bug, they're a feature.

Randy T: as part of the rebuild a SubAir system was put in place, meaning they can water the daylights out of the greens during this week's heat wave. Given the course is closed they could be blowing air over buckets of dry ice, for all I know. Of course we won't see those maintenance efforts on TV, just their product.

Peter: a few years ago the Wash Post sent Tour pro Steve Marino out to one of the really beat-up local munis. Greens killed him. Of course, whether it was the speed or the quality...well, it wasn't a controlled experiment.

B+
What kept you from an A was neglecting to mention that, like width from tee to green, green speeds are a contingent value, not an absolute value; the value of such features are contingent upon the value of the employment of gravity, specifically how gravity is used via green slope and green contour. (How's that for professorial puffbucket pontification?)

Here's another question: do SubAir Systems allow greens to be fast yet soft?

[Ronald Montesano]

That's 14 on the metric stimpmeter scale...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Increased speeds can ONLY lead to the loss of character in greens, which affects not just putting, but approaches and recoveries

[Matt Day]

at this rate we'll be doing stimp readings for fairways soon 

[JSlonis]

You guys who know Congressional: can the greens handle those speeds?  If so, seems like they must be real flat. 

I've had the opportunity to play the course several times in competition at the Eastern Four Ball.  Unless the greens have been totally neutered over the past five years, I can't imagine green speeds of 14-14.5 being possible.  I know Pat has mentioned the study of speed and degree of slope on a couple threads and he has said the same.  Seems like an overstatement of possible speed to me.  Wasn't speed at Bethpage around 14-15? From my recollection, the majority of greens at The Black have quite a bit less slope and countour than what you'd find at Congressional.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think at 15 a ball will roll to the lowest point, so unless the greens are totally flat, a 15 stimp is actually impossible to play golf on.
As soon as you get up past 13 you run into possible 'sillys' with wind conditions blowing balls about and a spike mark could deflect a ball considerably. Does not seem much sanity in trying to take greens right to the very edge. I thought they messed up at Shinecock a few years back where they got caught out.

[John_Conley]

They paved paradise and held a U.S. Open.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

You guys who know Congressional: can the greens handle those speeds?  If so, seems like they must be real flat. 

I've had the opportunity to play the course several times in competition at the Eastern Four Ball.  Unless the greens have been totally neutered over the past five years, I can't imagine green speeds of 14-14.5 being possible.  I know Pat has mentioned the study of speed and degree of slope on a couple threads and he has said the same.  Seems like an overstatement of possible speed to me.  Wasn't speed at Bethpage around 14-15? From my recollection, the majority of greens at The Black have quite a bit less slope and countour than what you'd find at Congressional.

Jamie,
 
  I didn't play the course (Congo) under conditions you may have faced; however, I don't recall a lot of necessarily 'scary' putts there; I recall more general quadrants in the greens, maybe defined tiers or sections, maybe back left and right, etc.  I don't think there are any locations such as 14 green at Pebble where a shot will not hold.  You're right on the call on Bethpage; except for a handful, those greens are a lot flatter, with more subtle breaks to them. 

  I think, there might be places where it can get 'scary'; for example, front hole location on 7 and the player hits it to the top tier of the green, maybe a player missing 11 green left and having to play down towards the small pond, maybe going long on 13, long on 14, etc.  I also think it's more a combination of hitting longer irons to these greens in the proper position to putt more aggressively vs. putting defensively and just trying to cozy the ball close for pars.

  Staying below the hole is probably a smart place to be.  Unless, on the other hand, this time of year, they are expecting the usual afternoon thunderstorms--when I worked there, every day, like clockwork, around 430-500pm, there were severe storms for about a half hour.  Then the rain stopped, and members and guests went back out to play.   

  I am pretty sure most all the greens there have Subair installed, so it may make it more manageable.  Maybe they will start out with higher speeds and adjust dependent on weather and conditions.  I don't recall WDC having excessive winds, apart from during storms. 

[PCCraig]

I'm sure they could get them that fast under normal conditions...but if the heat wave keeps up there is no chance. They would be putting on dirt.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Years ago, Mike Rewinski, the superintendent at Westhampton started a thread or two about green speeds.
I believe one was titled, "The need for speed"

In any event, several courses, wonderful old courses have seen their greens altered, flattened in order to accomodate higher speeds.

Winged Foot West was one of these clubs.

I also understand that Merion either flattened some greens or is considering flattening some greens.

Based on prior posts it appears that Congressional has flattened some greens.

This sets the worst possible precedent for local clubs.
Those craving higher speeds will cite USGA and PGA tournaments and the fact that those venues flattened their greens to accomodate the higher speeds, therefore the local club should do the same.

Anyone who attended the GCA.com get together at Mountain Ridge last September probably appreciates those wonderful sloped and contoured Donald Ross greens.  The thought of flattening them to accomodate higher speeds seems so alien because it would eliminate the distinctive character of those greens, making them mundane, like any other course.

Those greens are so spectacular.

Why disfigure the very element that provides such unique character, the greens.

Why disavow the legacy, tradition and uniqueness the old greens provded ?

[Randy Thompson]

PATRICK,
We all seem to think the same, the problem is no one in this 1500 group is cutting the cake. Its all insane!

[Jaeger Kovich]

Patrick - Which greens were altered at WF? I've always been under the impression that WF has stayed pretty true to the original design apart from the tree growth/removal, some new tees and mow lines.  I know they've done some good green expansion work, I think in house....

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat,

  I'm not sure if Congressional flattened their greens as much as rebuilt them.  When I worked there, I played the Blue course often, and, as I said in an earlier post, don't recall them having as much slope and contour as much as having distinct, but slightly subtle, quadrants or areas the player can play towards, or the hole location can be cut.  This was about 7 years ago, well before any sort of modification was taking place-I don't recall the Open even being announced at the time, which is not to say it wasn't in discussion or planning stages for architectural changes to the golf course.  

I think it was maybe a year or two later, around the time Booz Allen Hamilton still sponsored the tournament, that talk surfaced about rebuilding the 18th hole.  I may be slightly off in my dates.  

  There are a few greens that have tiers, ridges and shelves, but, I think, unlike some of the greens at Mountain Ridge or Merion, they're not lay of the land, or near as severe as say, the 18th at The Creek.  Which, as you would know, is a tough putt from the top tier or back of the green down to a front hole location. Most of the greens there are built-up in a sculpted green complex, with some mounding and bunkers.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick - Which greens were altered at WF? I've always been under the impression that WF has stayed pretty true to the original design apart from the tree growth/removal, some new tees and mow lines.  I know they've done some good green expansion work, I think in house....

WFW altered greens.

Neil Regan can fill you in on the specifics.