[Ally Mcintosh]

I had the real pleasure of playing four of MacKenzie's early courses in West Yorkshire this weekend... I may get round to posting some pictures in the future (especially of Sand Moor as it is less documented) but for now here are my initial thoughts:

Alwoodley: Clearly the King Pin of the four and one of the very best inland golf courses I’ve ever had the pleasure of seeing… People on other threads seem to mention the group of holes from 8 to 12 as favourites but for me, the stretch from 3 to 8 is amongst the best I’ve ever played…The open heath and subtle grade level architecture of this area (with 13 and 14 occupying the same land on the return) is just wonderful… The fall off on the back-left of the 3rd green in to a swale is unique in my experience. The approach and green site on 4 is top-notch as is the left to right canter and approach bunkering on 5… Ken Moodie has reworked bunkers on 1, 2, 17 & 18 and they look pretty good to me… Be interested in seeing if he can boldly return some of the others to former glories in coming years (including taking some out of the current rough / heather)… Big fan of 15 (deceptive front bunker and huge false front) and the whole set-up for approach to 16 as well… Clubhouse area beautifully compact with 1st tee, 18th green and putting area...… Can’t wait to return (incidentally, it seems clear to me that the new 11th was built just by looking at the boundary shapes on google earth versus the MacKenzie map)

Moortown: I wrote about this on the Moortown thread but this was also hugely enjoyable and the course met and surpassed expectations… Again, I liked the new bunkering (although many may question the bunker sand colour) and the course was chock full of interesting strategic choices… It appears there has been some tree clearing here so an open heath feel is restored in many areas…Main negative was the up and down nature of 11-14 and it is clear the original MacKenzie routing (starting at current 12 with two par-3’s in this area) would have worked better… Two new holes at 6 and 7 weren’t bad at all in my opinion but could maybe do with some clearing and strategising… All in all some wonderful golf though and the course seems to be heading in the right direction… Played beautifully firm and fast and some recent drainage work was evident…. 18 a cracking finisher…

Sand Moor: Much less visited than the previous two and a rather schizophrenic course but well worth the effort… Whereas Moortown and Alwoodley are relatively flat, this plays on some serious slopes which make for some great holes and some poor ones… The short / driveable par-4s were a bit disappointing (2 and 13 in particular being very squeezed in, the latter could do with some serious tree clearing / overhaul)… and some of the side slopes were verging on unplayable because they wouldn’t hold balls… The first few holes also have a plethora of blind shots (and the blind 18th is a poor finisher) but that is about all of the negatives… There were some of the very best holes (and bunker placements) of the entire weekend at Sand Moor… Approach to 4 was great, 5 set up nicely to the eye, 6 was a first rate long par-4 that swept to the right with three deceptive diagonal approach bunkers (very golden age), all the par-3’s were good (if a little similar) and the 11th was an absolute beauty of a shortish par-4….If this green was moved back 15 yards, raised by a couple and the trees cleared to the right and behind giving a horizon view over the lake, it would be all-world…One suspects this would be impossible for a number of reasons though (not least permitting for the tree clearing and that there appears to be a public right of way running around the lake)… 16 is a beautiful par-5 as well, sweeping left and then playing down and up to a green built in to the far slope… Although not in the class of Alwoodley and Moortown, this course has so much going for it that it would be a real shame to pass it up if in the area…

Ilkley: The only non-heathland MacKenzie course of the tour, Ilkley plays along a river valley with the first seven holes having the river Wharfe adjacent… It is a gentle and pleasant parkland course with a lovely setting and some wonderful small scale design detail (but not enough)… Overall, it was a little disappointing… The first 3 holes beside the river could have so much more made of them… The 4th has an inviting heroic carry over the river but again the strategy could be improved… Basically it was the visuals and concepts of these first few holes that need work in my opinion to bring out a little drama and thought in shot making… The par-5 6th was pretty good because it had a well positioned (and large) diagonal centreline bunker about 80 yards out… The seventh was a lovely long par-4 that had a diagonal ridge that effected visuals and play… Some of the better holes and features were inland such as the gathering bunker on the left side of the driveable 10th and both the short 13th (and especially the even shorter 15th) were challenging and well executed one shotters… All in all this was an enjoyable round but I just felt the detail wasn’t really there, especially in the early holes… I saw after that Jonathon Gaunt has a masterplan for course upgrades… Hopefully he will just subtly bring out the potential in some of the holes and then it really could be a very good course… Currently, I’d comfortably take Sand Moor ahead of it though… Very pleasant welcome here though

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Ally, Good to get your views on Sand Moor and Ilkley, the two of them rarely mentioned on here. Ilkley is not a very subtle course and I much prefer the inland back nine holes to those in and around the river. Yes, you can get in trouble in the river, but if you are at all competent it should not be a factor.

I wonder what was lost at Sand Moor. Were there any good or even great holes buried under housing?

[Ash Towe]

I have had the pleasure of playing all 4 courses.

Like Ally, Alwoodley and Moortown are both class acts. The architecture of Alwoodley I found to be more interesting than its near neighbour but the conditioning of Moortown was superior.

Sand Moor appears to me a course that has lost some land and had to be squeezed in to its current location.

Ilkley is a good course set in some very pleasant surroundings.  A super place to have a round on a summers afternoon.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thought I'd post some pics of Sand Moor seeing as the course isn't known by many

Approach to 1st Hole:


Approach to 4th Hole:


Tee Shot 5th Hole:


Tee Shot 6th Hole:


Approach to 6th Hole:


Approach to 7th Hole:


Tee Shot 8th Hole:


Tee Shot 10th Hole:


Tee Shot 11th Hole:


Approach to 11th Hole:


Approach to 12th Hole:


Approach to 14th Hole:


Tee Shot 15th Hole:


Tee Shot 16th Hole:


2nd Shot 16th Hole:


Approach to 16th Hole:


Tee Shot 17th Hole:

[Bill_McBride]

Ally, even though Sand Moor looks to be on steeper terrain, there was agriculture done there in the past.  See the "rig and furrows" in those last few photos?  Very similar to the 16th fairway at Alwoodley.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally, even though Sand Moor looks to be on steeper terrain, there was agriculture done there in the past.  See the "rig and furrows" in those last few photos?  Very similar to the 16th fairway at Alwoodley.

And indeed the 16th fairway at Moortown also Bill... They make for an interesting additional hazard... "overshaped" some may say...

[Sean_A]

Ally

Thanks for the photos. Some of the bunkering looks rather trite, but the course still looks good.  Why do you think folks don't talk much about Sand Moor?

Are there photos of Moortown coming?

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Ally,

Thanks, those are the first pictures I've seen of Sand Moor which is a course I've been interested in seeing.  As Sean says, it looks an interesting course though what got my attention, rather than the bunkering, was that this looks like yet another course that would have looked and played better before some of those trees grew.

[James Boon]

Ally,

Thanks for the pictures of Sand Moor. I too know very little of the course or its history, so how much of what is there today is MacKenzie?

With both Alwoodley and Moortown carrying out quite a bit of work to the bunkering etc, a course that was already third choice in the area, is in real danger of getting overlooked, and anyone who plays the other two once all their bunker work etc is finished is going to have a hard time believing that all 3 are all MacKenzie courses. Or in saying that, am I too getting suckered into the aesthetics of the bunkers and MacKenzie's skill as an architect will still shine through???

Cheers,

James

[Scott Warren]

Ally, the 7th at Alwoodley is also Moodie bunkering.

Interestingly, the club didn't chase a "MacKenzie" look for the bunkering, but simply concentrated on the styles of the period executed by Colt, MacKenzie and Fowler, among others. It's a great look that suits the site, IMO.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

Thanks for the photos. Some of the bunkering looks rather trite, but the course still looks good.  Why do you think folks don't talk much about Sand Moor?

Are there photos of Moortown coming?

Ciao

Sean, the bunkering looks good with the sand faces when built in to a bigger slope / ridge around the green but I agree that some of the bunker styles on the flatter areas are lacking... Some of the positioning is great though... The three approach bunkers on 6 work very well...

Why do they not talk about it? I don't know... It's shorter and it has some bad holes... It could do with revitalising and some tree clearing but all in all it makes up a pretty great trio with Moortown and Alwoodley... I don't know what land was lost (or when) and what holes have changed as a result but I'd love to find out... I suspect the short par-4 2nd has changed...

Photos of Moortown to follow...

[Clyde Johnson]

Ally,

I visited last month and has similar questions to yourself...anyway, the secretary kindly a sent a copy of their club history:

As is pretty clear when playing, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th (over less than desirable terrain) and 13th (sandwiched awkwardly between the existing 12th and 14th) are the completely new holes. The first two and last two holes were originally south of Alwoodley Lane (pretty close to Moortown's northern property line). The move was completed during the 1960's - there was pressure on a lease running short in 1976 - with financing an issue it was a time of turmoil for the club.



As for Mackenzie, i am still not sure to the extent of his influence - it seems any claims, in the club history book anyway, are made on presumptions from old photos showing greens 'in the style of Mackenzie’. Archives show he was active in the establishment of the club, elected as vice-president, and continued to attend green committee meetings. Does anyone have a definitive answer?

Cheers, Clyde

[Mark Pearce]

Clyde,

That's fascinating, thanks.  Interesting to note that in 1957 there's no mention of par.  Instead, for each hole there is a given Standard Scratch Score, which looks exactly like par.  Any idea what competition that plan forms part of the program for?

[Clyde Johnson]

Mark,

It was the Yorkshire Evening News Tournaments (alternated yealy with Moortown):

[Ally Mcintosh]

Clyde,

Perfect - Thank you.

Assuming the four holes (and land) south of Alwoodley Lane were good ones (being adjacent to Moortown you'd hope so), then this original routing looks much more pleasing.

It single-handedly gets rid of almost all the weak points:

- The current 2nd hole: A poor short Par-4 running west after the old 3rd hole (which is the current 1st with the clubhouse placed in that corner of the property)
- The current 3rd hole which has a pleasing drive but a very poor blind approach shot
- The current 4th hole which has a poor blind drive but an approach (obviously new) which I was fond of.
- The current 13th hole (short par-4) which is placed between the old 11th and 12th holes (although 12 tees must have been moved to accommodate this.)
- The current 18th hole which plays from the same tees as the old 16th but finishes abruptly over a blind rise beside the new clubhouse. The old 16th must have played longer down to what is now the practice putting green

2, 13 and 18 are the weakest holes on the course... Here is a picture of the putting green which must have been the old 16th green:




That old clubhouse looks like a rather splendid art deco creation as well...

Was this course thought of as highly as Moortown and Alwoodley in the early days? I wouldn't be surprised now that I have a clearer picture of what has changed.

[Mark Pearce]

Ally's right about that old clubhouse.  Looks like a sad loss.  I assume it was demolished?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally's right about that old clubhouse.  Looks like a sad loss.  I assume it was demolished?

I've just been looking at Google Earth... It appears the old 18th played adjacent to Moortown's current 18th (original 9th) and the old clubhouse would have been literally 150m away from the current Moortown clubhouse (which was built when?)... These 4 holes are all housing now... There is a green area remaining which probably housed the old 17 green / 18 tees from Moortown before the new houses were built... The Sand Moor boundary outline as per Clyde's routing plan is clearly defined by tree-lines and hedgerows which must have been protected when the housing permitting was sought...

[Bill_McBride]

Ally, even though Sand Moor looks to be on steeper terrain, there was agriculture done there in the past.  See the "rig and furrows" in those last few photos?  Very similar to the 16th fairway at Alwoodley.

And indeed the 16th fairway at Moortown also Bill... They make for an interesting additional hazard... "overshaped" some may say...

"Overshaped" by farmers rather than golf course architects and contractors!

I haven't played the other Leeds courses, just Alwoodley, but I could happily play out the rest of my days with Alwoodley as my home course.  What a wonderful course, great routing.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally, even though Sand Moor looks to be on steeper terrain, there was agriculture done there in the past.  See the "rig and furrows" in those last few photos?  Very similar to the 16th fairway at Alwoodley.

And indeed the 16th fairway at Moortown also Bill... They make for an interesting additional hazard... "overshaped" some may say...

"Overshaped" by farmers rather than golf course architects and contractors!

I haven't played the other Leeds courses, just Alwoodley, but I could happily play out the rest of my days with Alwoodley as my home course.  What a wonderful course, great routing.

Yes indeed Bill... On what was probably poor farming soil, they still made the most of it!...

I agree completely about Alwoodley... As a home course (inland) it would be fantastic... I thought that myself on the day and could only come up with Woking to match it for feel... I'll post some photos later... Unfortunately I took none of Ilkley which would probably have been more use seeing as it isn't documented elsewhere...

[Ally Mcintosh]

Here we have some pics of Moortown... Note the new bunkers renovated / restored by Ken Moodie of Creative Golf Design... Note also the 1989 holes (6, 7 & 14) and that trees have just recently been cleared behind 7 green / left of 9 approach / left of 10 (Gibraltar) which looks like it must be a big improvement... The greens themselves at Moortown were a pretty good set, many with some reasonable undulation and many with fairly flattish general tilt of the land style greens... A mix of raised and grade level with the two new ones at 6 and 7 being raised and slightly crowned...

1st Tee Shot:


1st Greenside Right:


2nd Hole from fairway:


2nd Hole left Greenside bunker:


3rd Hole Tee Shot:


3rd Hole Approach:


4th Hole Tee Shot:


5th Hole Tee Shot:


5th Hole Approach:


6th Hole Approach:


7th Hole Approach (Trees cleared behind):


7th Hole Approach (2):


8th Hole Tee Shot:


9th Hole Approach (Trees cleared left):


10th Hole Tee Shot (Gibraltar):


10th Hole (2):


11th Hole Approach:


12th Hole Tee Shot:


12th Hole Approach:


13th Hole Approach:


14th Hole Tee Shot:


14th Hole Approach from Left:


15th Hole Tee Shot:


16th Hole Tee Shot:


16th Hole Approach:


16th Hole Greenside Right:


17th Hole Tee Shot:


18th Hole Tee Shot:


18th Hole Approach:

[James Boon]

Ally,

Thanks for the photos of Moortown. When I was there back in November most of this work was still being undertaken, so here is a link to my pics for comparison: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46708.0.html

The tree clearance you mention looks a great improvement, and its good to see the bunker work finished, but blimey, thats white sand in those bunkers! It almost looks like you've photoshopped it in... 

And thanks Clyde for the old plan of Sand Moor. In my previous reply to this thread I almost mentioned that I seemed to recall seeing an old aerial photo with some holes from another course running beside Moortown, which I thought might have been Sand Moor, but decided not to mention it as I thought my mind was playing tricks on me! 

Cheers,

James

[Mark_Rowlinson]

James, That will have been Moor Allerton, which sold up and moved out of its MacKenzie course onto a Trent Jones one in the country.

[Ally Mcintosh]

James, That will have been Moor Allerton, which sold up and moved out of its MacKenzie course onto a Trent Jones one in the country.

Mark,

It may well have been Sand Moor which had its old 18th running exactly parallel and adjacent with Moortown's current 18th...

But you've piqued my interest talking about the original Moor Allerton... What do you know of it?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I've been trying to find aerial pictures of Moor Allerton and have, so far, failed. However, there are some pre-war aerials of Sand Moor and Moortown on: http://www.leodis.org/searchResults.aspx?LOCID=9999&DECADE=0&YEAR=&KEYWORDS=%20Golf%20Club&KEYWORDS2=&KEYWORDS3=&ANDOR2=&ANDOR3=&RECSPAGE=5&VIEW=1&CURRPAGE=1

The original Moor Allerton was established in 1923 alongside Moortown. Rights of way issues in the 1960s prompted the move to a site on part of the Harewood Estate, along with the killing they could make selling the land for housing. The proximity of the new housing to Moortown caused some of the alterations to the course. The original Moor Allerton was a MacKenzie design.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Mark, those three 1937 aerials are great - thanks.

It seems quite apparent that Sand Moor lost something with that original clubhouse (and 4 holes). The 1st tees and practice putting green are sited beautifully and even from a distance the original 18th green looks like one to behold....

So if Sand Moor was to the East and North of Moortwon, where exactly was Moor Allerton I wonder... Was it held in the same esteem?

4 "great" courses right beside each other?

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