[Mark_Rowlinson]

I've found one picture of the Moor holes at Moortown in 1937 which shows an expanse of Moor Allerton on the far side beyond a stone wall. It's in a programme for an event at Moortown in June 2000. It's very pale and I've not been able to scan it adequately. Google Earth doesn't go far enough back in time to be of any assistance. But there are pictures - we just need to find them.

[James Boon]

James, That will have been Moor Allerton, which sold up and moved out of its MacKenzie course onto a Trent Jones one in the country.

Mark,

It may well have been Sand Moor which had its old 18th running exactly parallel and adjacent with Moortown's current 18th...

But you've piqued my interest talking about the original Moor Allerton... What do you know of it?

Mark,

I think I may have thought it was an aerial showing Moor Allerton before it moved, but on seeing Clyde's plan and your excellent aerial photos, it certainly looks to be Sand Moor.

Fingers crossed someone can come up with something regarding the original Moor Allerton. Google Earths 1945 photos of the area can't come quick enough!!!

Cheers,

James

[Duncan Cheslett]

I played Ilkley yesterday in a MacKenzie Society meet,  and have to say that I was a little underwhelmed.  It's a lovely setting with the river and surrounding hills,  but the course itself srtuck me as a rather pedestrian affair; innumerable similar holes ploughing up and down a field with trees separating fairways.

In the bar afterwards I had a long chat with a very nice Irishman called Ken, who was introduced to me as 'a  golf course architect'.

Today I played Moortown, and was totally bowled over by the crazy bunkering I found. It put me in mind of the photos I've seen of later MacKenzie courses such as Pasatiempo and couldn't help but feel cheated that the good doctor hadn't seen fit to furnish my beloved Reddish Vale with something similar.

It is only now reviewing this thread over a bottle of red that I discover that not only are Moortown's bunkers not as MacKenzie left them, but that they are the work of my new friend Ken!

I enjoyed Moortown very much, but have to say I can't put it in the same league as other northern heathlands such as Sherwood Forest, Holinwell, or Delamere Forest.  

[Ally Mcintosh]

I played Ilkley yesterday in a MacKenzie Society meet,  and have to say that I was a little underwhelmed.  It's a lovely setting with the river and surrounding hills,  but the course itself srtuck me as a rather pedestrian affair; innumerable similar holes ploughing up and down a field with trees separating fairways.

In the bar afterwards I had a long chat with a very nice Irishman called Ken, who was introduced to me as 'a  golf course architect'.

Today I played Moortown, and was totally bowled over by the crazy bunkering I found. It put me in mind of the photos I've seen of later MacKenzie courses such as Pasatiempo and couldn't help but feel cheated that the good doctor hadn't seen fit to furnish my beloved Reddish Vale with something similar.

It is only now reviewing this thread over a bottle of red that I discover that not only are Moortown's bunkers not as MacKenzie left them, but that they are the work of my new friend Ken!

I enjoyed Moortown very much, but have to say I can't put it in the same league as other northern heathlands such as Sherwood Forest, Holinwell, or Delamere Forest.  

Hi Duncan,

Are you mixing Ken's?

Ken Moodie (Creative Golf Design) is Scottish and was responsible for the Moortown bunker renovation / restoration

The only Irish Ken who is a GCA is Ken Kearney, sometimes of this parish...

Jonathan Gaunt was due to do work at Ilkley... Do you know if this has started or is it still on the drawing board?

[Duncan Cheslett]

It was definitely Ken Moodie! The bottle of red has clearly addled my brain causing me to confuse my celts!

Jonathan Gaunt was also at the shindig yesterday and gave a little speech outlining the ongoing work he is doing at Ilkley. A new tee at the 18th bringing the bend of the river into play is the most obvious improvement.

[Paul_Turner]

The bunker restoration work at Moortown looks like a mixed bag.  Some good and some bad, with the less altered bunkers looking better than the rest (see 18th).  The British architects never get it quite right.

[Mark Pearce]

I finally got to Sand Moor yesterday and was very impressed.  I agree with pretty much everything Ally says.  There are some of the best golf holes in Yorkshire on the property.  It is a hilly site but generally used very well indeed.  In addition to the holes Ally praises I really enjoyed the par 5 12th (in fact, the par 5s are a really good set).  The par 3s are all individually very good holes although, as mentioned there's a similarity to them that stops them being a great set.  Some of the original par 4s (5, 6, 7, 11, 14) are excellent.  The weakest holes, unsurprisingly, are the new ones (2, 3 , 4 and worst of all 13).  If the lost holes were as good as the 14 surviving holes, this was a wonderful course.  I'm more familiar with Moortown but I'm not sure I'd put it that much above Sand Moor, even now.  What's sure is that Sand Moor has more than its share of the best  holes on the two courses.  Alwoodley remains a clear and steep step up.


I'll try to post some pictures over the weekend.

[Sean_A]

The more I play Alwoodley the less impressed I am.  Sure, its a fine course, but I don't have any room for it in the top 10 best inland in England.  There simply aren't enough highlights to warrant a very high rating. It may be the best of those discussed on this thread, but it is far closer run thing than most assume.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,


glad you enjoyed your game at Sandmoor. As mentioned earlier in the thread, Sandmoor, Moortown, Moor Allerton and Alwoodley used to be bordering each other making that part of Leeds probably the best piece of inland golfing property in the UK. Moor Allerton was a very highly regarded course before the move to the RTJ one which certainly is not anywhere near the same standard though maybe it has improved with age. I remember Moor Allerton mostly for the fact that Peter Alliss used to be the pro there. Also Howard Clark was also the tour pro attached there through the 80's.


The was a link posted earlier in the thread with photos from the late 30's which I have put in below.

: http://www.leodis.org/searchResults.aspx?LOCID=9999&DECADE=0&YEAR=&KEYWORDS=%20Golf%20Club&KEYWORDS2=&KEYWORDS3=&ANDOR2=&ANDOR3=&RECSPAGE=5&VIEW=1&CURRPAGE=1

These are incorrectly labelled except for the last one as they actually show the clubhouse and opening/closing holes of Sandmoor not Moortown as is mistakenly written. One even shows the entire area of the Sandmoor course and you can just make out the reservoir in the background. It must have been much more impressive without the trees and it is a shame the club do not clear fell that part of the course. On a side note, I am not sure but I believe the you are correct about the 14th tees being moved as the hole plays as a slight dogleg now.


I do disagree with Sean's assessment of Alwoodley as it is for me quite clearly along with Ganton the best inland course in England. No weak holes, great routing, rhythm and a course that manages to be overall greater than the sum of its parts. It is difficult to see where it could be improved on.


Jon

[Matt Dawson]

Intrigued by this as I'm playing Alwoodley next weekend for the first time. Very keen to see it and compare to the Surrey heathlands that I am fairly familiar with

I also hold Ganton and Notts in high regard, so I'm keen to see how it fits among them. I'm sure I won't be disappointed by my visit North

[Adam Lawrence]

I sort of understand where Sean is coming from, even if I don't necessarily agree with him. Jon's right too, in that the experience at Alwoodley is greater than the sum of its parts. It isn't a flash course at all, which is perhaps unusual for Dr MacKenzie given that he was in a sense the king of flash. One of the reasons that I think it would be a great place to be a member is that it's so very consistent and quite low-key. There aren't many holes that leap out at you and say 'Look at me! Aren't I great?' Equally there aren't any obvious disappointments.


In answer to Jon's question how could it be improved, the only obvious way of improving it as far as I can see would be moving it to better land

[Sean_A]

I think the greens could be more interesting (and it is very disappointing the 15th was leveled a bit), but yes, the property isn't exactly riveting.  That said, the 8th continues to beguile me like few par 5s can and few courses are more attractive. I like Alwoodley quite a bit and think it is a marvelous first design effort, but it is hard to see how it could make a top 2 inland for England....that is a serious stretch. The closest course I can think of in style to Alwoodley is Walton Heath Old...and I think WHO is the superior course.  Though I probably prefer Alwoodley because it is a more relaxing round without that bloody M25 banging my head all day! 

Ciao 

[Adam Lawrence]

Yes, even as a fully qualified and admitted Yorkshire Bigot (tm) I can't see Jon's assessment of Ganton and Alwoodley as clear one and two of English inland courses. Better than both courses at Sunningdale, St George's Hill, Swinley et al? Mind, I think there is a very interesting debate to be had about which of Ganton, Alwoodley, Notts and Woodhall Spa is the best inland north of London (I'm not the biggest fan of Woodhall myself, there isn't enough movement in the ground for my taste, but you can't exclude it from consideration). Notts imo is often massively underrated and clearly belongs in this elite company.

[Sean_A]

Adam

All four courses have something to be recommended. To me, Ganton is the top and Woodhall the bottom, but I want to see what happens at Woodhall...it has the potential to be an outstanding course of its type. Notts is the most interesting because of the holes up and around the hill and while brawny there is some charm about it.  I could understand if folks plopped for any of the four.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Each time I play either of them the gap between Alwoodley and Notts narrows.  I would certainly agree that of the 4 Ganton is top and Woodhall bottom.

[Jon Wiggett]

Adam,


I did say for me they were the best and I would agree with you about Notts though think Woodhall is overrated and would not be in my to 20 but that is just personal opinion. I have only played Sunningdale once and my memory of it is quite hazy but I remember at the time thinking it was good but not as good as Alwoodley and certainly not Ganton but again that is just my opinion. Maybe if they were to clear fell the entire course my opinion would change but I just felt the trees were a negative as well as a couple of weaker holes which neither Ganton nor Alwoodley have. I am not in the camp of wanting to be impressed by a couple of holes of golfing bling as some are but rather prefer the entire course to leave the impression. I think had Mark played Sandmoor as just the original 14 hole it would have left a stronger impression despite the losing 4 holes. I have not played either Swinley or St. Georges Hill so cannot comment.


Jon

[Richard Fisher]

OK. Just to respond to Sean et al (and I agree that this is a very marginal call)

I would personally go

Alwoodley (1)
Notts (2)
Ganton and Woodhall tied (3)

and I've long had Alwoodley and Swinley tied as my two favourite (not best, but favourite) inland courses in the UK. And it's always struck me as a super club too. But I need to go back to Ganton on a decent day, and not in another gale confronting a 4-club wind...

[Sean_A]

Richard

If we are talking favourites I am going with charm over difficulty all day long. Ganton may make my top 10 inland England favourites, but I don't have anywhere near the affection for it as I do Kington or Worlington.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Coincidence this thread was dragged back up because I just played Ganton for the first time yesterday (posted in Alwoodley vs Ganton thread).


I play it again on Monday but in the first flush of love, I could easily nominate it as the best inland course in GB&I

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