Vail, Grand Junction, Telluride, Durango, Farmingt

[Matt_Ward]

JWL:

To be clear -- I do like plenty of Jack's courses -- you have a different opinon and that's fine. I'm just curious -- are you member at either of the facilities?

I don't have a "pre-conceived" idea of Golden Bear designs because if you bothered to read what I said I highlighted a number of courses Jack has done that are very good and in many ways vastly underrated. The Chirichua Course at Desert Mountain is one of my personal favorites in all of Arizona and unfortunately gets little attention -- ditto the highly successful efforts Jack achieved with the difficult site at Old Works in Anaconda, MT. One of the best bargains you can have in playing a Jack design in the nation.

I fully understand how Jack has "evolved" in his thinking regarding what "works" and doesn't work for the average player because, as you may know, many of his earlier designs were thought to be too tough (i.e. The Geronimo at Desert Mountain is one example) although I think many people who made these comments had the misfortune of playing these layouts from the wrong tee boxes.

JWL, I don't have a "pre-determined" viewpoint on any course. I play the course in question and go from there -- simple as that. I don't hold what an architect did previously either for or against him. I judge the work for what it is -- period! When I say roughshod I believe that the folks who built Sunrise when the extra mile in building containment mounding on a few holes and the course seems more transported from another locale than actually fitting into the native New Mexico location. Again -- my opinion.

Let me ask you this -- do you believe the Sunrise Course is superior to Paa Ko Ridge in New Mexico? To the Tamaya and Cheenya Nines at Santa Ana? To Pinon Hills? To Twin Warrior? To UNM / Championship? I don't doubt the course is good, however, the competition in the Land of Enchantment is quite good at the top and you now have coming on line Black Mesa near Santa Fe. Are you suggesting Sunrise is the best course in NM? Please also tell me where you see Aspen Glen in the entire state of Colorado?

JWL: You have a different take on these two particular Jack designs -- so be it. But rest assured I do enjoy a number of Jack's designs and I believe some of his newest efforts are an evolution of where he started in the design business a number of years ago. I don't have any "bias" towards what Jack or other designers do and I believe my comments on GCA reflects that whenever I weigh in on the merits (lack thereof) of any course. Nothing more -- nothing less.

[Michael Dugger]

Matt

I thought I heard or read somewhere that JWL is an employee of Jack's group.  Just trying to help.

[pacgd]

Matt Ward:

JWL is Jim Lipe, who has been Jack Nicklaus' senior design associate since the early 1990s and was the lead designer on such courses as Cabo del Sol, Mayacama, Castle Pines, among others.

Though I played on my high school baseball team, I'd probably be a little more deferential and listen more than I talked when discussing the game with, say, Greg Maddox.  He's a player, I'm not.    

[Matt_Ward]

pacgd:

Appreciate the put down.

It would be most helpful if someone who actually works for an architect publicly discloses his connection to same. Clearly, the issue of partiality becomes a matter of debate and has to be placed in sort of context.

I've stated my opinions -- no less than others -- and backed up my conclusions on a wide range of Nicklaus courses by being fair, at least I think so, in all of the comments I've made.

pacgd, remember learning is a two way street even for those of us who sit in the "cheap seats."

[Michael Dugger]

Never ceases to amaze me!  


JWL has a vested interest, he works for Jack.  

Matt Ward is paid to critique golf courses.  

We are all subjective human beings.  Just because you build golf courses does not mean your word is fact.  Just because you critique courses does not mean your word is fact.  Matt doesn't like what JWL likes (thank goodness).  JWL may not like what Matt does (thank goodness).  I think what is important about all this is that people are giving explanations and reasoning behind their positions.  This is the point of GCA.com.  FRANK DISCUSSION

  

[Forrest Richardson]

mdugger -- You seem to mesh "build" with "design" when you meant "design". I suppose the two acts can be interchanged in certain instances, but you really meant "design" didn't you? I mean, this is what architects do — they design. And we occasionally jump in and carry out our designs by jumping on eqipment, etc. — And, there are talents such as Gil Hanse who does both design and building. But mostly, "Builders" "build".

[Michael Dugger]

Forrest
 
Yes, design does carry more relevance in this instance.  
My bad.  

In my own fantasy world every designer builds his own.  
I wish it was true.

I can understand why it would be a little silly to get up in arms about a golf course that you built if you had ZERO say in the design.  I meant to say design.

[JWL]

Matt

I appreciate your position on critiquiing golf courses, and I applaud you on not having preconceived ideas of what a course is or isn't based on a prior opinion of a designer.  

I must admit, however, that you threw me with your comments  with wording like "standard, over shaped/produced mounding", etc.   It seemed like you were describing a preconceived idea of what standard Nicklaus design was, and that those courses met that description to you.  I stand corrected.

My posts are always to set the record straight, as I see it, regarding any course that I know intimately.  I never attempt to make any comparison or declare one course better than another, because, like you, I believe beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I am glad that there a several Nicklaus designs that you enjoy.  One of them, Anaconda, however, has considerably more shaping and is on land that has been run "roughshod" over much more than AG or LC.

Regarding the other courses you mentioned in NM, I unfortuately have not played any of them.  I have seen pictures, and some of them look quite appealing.  I, by no means, have inferred that LC or AG are better or worse than any that you have mentioned, except in the beginning thread on MC.  

As for mdugger's comments about my not liking what you like, and vice versa, I think he/you might be surprised as to how much agreement we actually have.  

As for my identifying myself, I didn't think it appropriate, since I have posted here previously, but I also had no intention of misleading anyone.  I just enjoy the discussion, I defend my work when I feel it needs/deserves it, and although I have been a designer for 33 years and in my 20th year as Jack's senior design associate, I never feel like I am to old to learn.  Although I am pretty old.  

Thanks for you input.

[Michael Dugger]

JWL,

Can you give us the lowdown on Pronghorn?  How is it coming along?

[JWL]

mdugger

Sorry, but that is not one of my projects.  Therefore, I am out of the loop on its status.

[Matt_Ward]

JWL:

Appreciate your post. I would urge you to play / see some of the courses I mentioned in New Mexico -- in fact, I'm in the state now and will be visiting Black Mesa in a few days.

Let me also clarify about the notion of overshaping -- at the site in Anaconda I can go along with it given the nature of what the site was and what was needed to be done in order to comply with EPA guidelines. Jack and his team did a first rate job -- in fact, I think the course is one of his very best because of the end result AND the fact that the public can enjoy it at such a modest cost.

I also credit Jack for being the major player in opening up the Southwest area of the country for more and more top courses. Yes, Red Lawrence deserves high marks for Desert Forest but it was Jack that caused more heads to turn with Desert Highlands and obviously others have followed.

However, I don't see the level of detail / shotmaking requirements at Las Campanas (Sunrise) -- have not played Sunset. Ditto with Aspen Glen. Yes, they have their share of good holes but in the final analysis, for me anyway, they lack the pizzazz and staying power (memorability) that I believe a course should have.

P.S. One last thing -- was it Jack's idea or Lyle Anderson's to change the 13th and 14th holes at Geronimo at Desert Mountain? I loved both of the former holes and the greensite at the 14th was one of the Bear's best. Be interested if you can comment. Thanks!

[billb]

Quassi:

I lived in Durango in the late 80's and  have lived  in Denver ever since, so I familiar with the area and some of these courses.

My two cents worth:

I can't talk about the courses in the Vail Valley or Aspen area because I can't afford the green fees. I did play the Aspen town course once and thought it was medicore at best.

One of the most respected courses in the Colorado Front Range mountains is the old course at Keystone. I think it is a Trent Jones course, I have seen it and it looks great. There is a second course at Keystone (The River Course?) that I know nothing about.

Battlement Mesa in Parachute, just off I-70 a bit east of Grand Junction is worth a visit.

Rifle Creek in Rifle, a bit east of Battlement Mesa. I have not played it, but lots of people rave about it.

Redlands Mesa is a must play.

Devil's Thumb in Delta is excellent. As someone else mentioned, the conditioning could be better, but it is a new course.

Telluride - cost $135 on a weekday in 1999. Not worth it. A few good holes, but a quirky routing. Strange broad bladed high altitude grass gave funky lies on the fairways.

Fairway Pines outside of Ridgeway (between Delta and Ouray) is worth a visit. It is up on a mesa and has incredible views of the San Juan Mountains. It will cost less than half of Telluride and although it has a few funky holes it is a better golf course.

If you like mountain views, be sure to drive Hwy 550 from Ouray, through Silverton, and on to Durango. It is called the "San Juan Skyway" and crosses 3 passes above 10,000 feet.

The Cliffs: Only played it a couple times, always early season. Some very tight holes, some very blind shots, quite a few elevation changes. Scenic place, but not the high mountain views at other Colorado courses.

Hillcrest is the town course in Durango is not a must play but is a great value and always in great condition, especially the smooth and fast greens. Durango is a great resort town, laid back, casual, a bunch of good restaruants - and very affordable compared to the well know Colorado resorts such as Vail and Aspen.
 
The GCA New Mexico contingent has already addressed their courses.

Remember you are coming to the high country so watch out for the altitude. Drink LOTS of water, use plenty of sunscreen, easy on the booze. It will take your body a couple of days to adjust so take it easy at the beginning, especially if you fly to Denver and head right to Keystone or Vail, they are both around 9000 feet!

Have fun and spend lots of money, we like visitors here in Colorado!

Bill