[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Pat mucci said:

"Just look at ANGC or Seminole in the summer.
Location and climate are major factors that have NOTHING to do with the architecture"

...

Well, Mr. Mucci, an architect would probably engineer a course so it didn't play mushy when it rains in the winter. A designer, would simply lay out the design, and let the weather happen.

What is your definition of architecture?
 

Here's the thing though, Pebble remains playable through all this. Unless it rains like a fire hydrant, Pebble is not typically "lift-clean-and-place" wet. Sure, it plays different during different seasons, but nearly all courses do.

[Garland Bayley]

Pat mucci said:

"Just look at ANGC or Seminole in the summer.
Location and climate are major factors that have NOTHING to do with the architecture"

...

Well, Mr. Mucci, an architect would probably engineer a course so it didn't play mushy when it rains in the winter. A designer, would simply lay out the design, and let the weather happen.

What is your definition of architecture?
 

Here's the thing though, Pebble remains playable through all this. Unless it rains like a fire hydrant, Pebble is not typically "lift-clean-and-place" wet. Sure, it plays different during different seasons, but nearly all courses do.

It's on the ocean. Sometimes it rains like a "fire hydrant." I think Dugger's point is that if it rains like a "fire hydrant" at Pacific Dunes, the course does not play as different from normal as Pebble does in the same conditions.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Pat mucci said:

"Just look at ANGC or Seminole in the summer.
Location and climate are major factors that have NOTHING to do with the architecture"

...

Well, Mr. Mucci, an architect would probably engineer a course so it didn't play mushy when it rains in the winter. A designer, would simply lay out the design, and let the weather happen.

What is your definition of architecture?
 

Here's the thing though, Pebble remains playable through all this. Unless it rains like a fire hydrant, Pebble is not typically "lift-clean-and-place" wet. Sure, it plays different during different seasons, but nearly all courses do.

It's on the ocean. Sometimes it rains like a "fire hydrant." I think Dugger's point is that if it rains like a "fire hydrant" at Pacific Dunes, the course does not play as different from normal as Pebble does in the same conditions.

I understand where he is trying to go with it, but its a flawed argument. He makes like a course that plays differently because of the weather is inherently inferior to a course that does not. That simply is not the case. If it were, courses like Augusta National (which so far as I know closes during the summer) or Pine Valley (which closes in winter due to snow/cold, I think) would be inferior to any and ALL courses that are able to stay open all year, because they are, for different reasons, 100% unplayable during portions of the year. The logic just doesn't work.

[Garland Bayley]

Pat mucci said:

"Just look at ANGC or Seminole in the summer.
Location and climate are major factors that have NOTHING to do with the architecture"

...

Well, Mr. Mucci, an architect would probably engineer a course so it didn't play mushy when it rains in the winter. A designer, would simply lay out the design, and let the weather happen.

What is your definition of architecture?
 

Here's the thing though, Pebble remains playable through all this. Unless it rains like a fire hydrant, Pebble is not typically "lift-clean-and-place" wet. Sure, it plays different during different seasons, but nearly all courses do.

It's on the ocean. Sometimes it rains like a "fire hydrant." I think Dugger's point is that if it rains like a "fire hydrant" at Pacific Dunes, the course does not play as different from normal as Pebble does in the same conditions.

I understand where he is trying to go with it, but its a flawed argument. He makes like a course that plays differently because of the weather is inherently inferior to a course that does not. That simply is not the case. If it were, courses like Augusta National (which so far as I know closes during the summer) or Pine Valley (which closes in winter due to snow/cold, I think) would be inferior to any and ALL courses that are able to stay open all year, because they are, for different reasons, 100% unplayable during portions of the year. The logic just doesn't work.

So Augusta National wasted their money by installing sub-air, because they gained nothing from it.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,
If you walked Pebble Beach 3 times a week without playing during your summer on the peninsula, I would say you were bored or are a bull shitter.

Stan,

I did play it that summer, as I mentioned I've played it several times!!  When I didn't get out ay Cypress my routine was to head over to the putting green at Pebble for a while and then walk the course.  I was only there for two and a half months so I wanted to take it in as best as I could.  Garland is also right, I caddied out at Pebble too, albeit just once.

I'm no expert on Pebble but I have experienced the place and love it.  It's magical, to say the least.

Hope your doing well.

Best,
Jordan

[Scott Warren]

Jamie,

That simply is not the case. If it were, courses like Augusta National (which so far as I know closes during the summer) or Pine Valley (which closes in winter due to snow/cold, I think)

It doesn't.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Jamie,

That simply is not the case. If it were, courses like Augusta National (which so far as I know closes during the summer) or Pine Valley (which closes in winter due to snow/cold, I think)

It doesn't.

What doesn't? I'm confused...enlighten me. 

[Scott Warren]

Pine Valley doesn't close each winter for snow/cold.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,

Anyone that denies the merits of the architecture of the holes at Pebble Beach doesn't understand architecture.

The Pacific is pretty to look at, but the quality of the golf holds transcends the vistas.

pat,

Perhaps.

But I would like to think that the views/vista are tied into the architecture...they are inseperable.  We know several arch'ies have said they try to maximize off course features. 

So I can only deduce something like the ocean, in the case of Pebble, is explicitly a part of the architecture.

So, when you're playing the course, you don't focus on the DZ and target greens ?
When you're hitting your shots you're looking at the Ocean ?
The only area that the ocean impacts the architecture is when it's an integral part of the hole, like on # 18 and other holes where it's the hazard to be dealt with.

[Garland Bayley]

Seriously, the word that keeps getting bandied about here is architecture.

Frank Lloyd Wright architected the SC Johnson Wax headquarters building. It is a beautiful and innovative design. Unfortunately, it is my understanding that design has a flaw that results in a leaky roof. Therefore, there is an inherent flaw in the architecture. Had it been built in the Atacama desert, the architecture would have been greater as it would be better suited to it's locale.

Until Pebble Beach is architected to handle the water as well as Pacific Dunes, it will be slightly behind Pacific Dunes on that factor of the architecture.

Frank Gehry's Walt Disney Concert Hall is a beautiful design, but if it turns out there are structural flaws, it will be downgraded for its flawed architecture.

So Jamie, and Patrick, stop using the word architecture until you are willing to discuss architecture instead of esoteric "shot values" and the such.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pine Valley doesn't close each winter for snow/cold.


Scott, I've played PV when the greens stimped at 6 and it was soft

You can't categorize play of a golf course based on adverse weather conditions.

Mother Nature will always win the big battles.

Unless you feel that play should have continued in LA. during Hurricane Katrina

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat mucci said:

"Just look at ANGC or Seminole in the summer.
Location and climate are major factors that have NOTHING to do with the architecture"

...

Well, Mr. Mucci, an architect would probably engineer a course so it didn't play mushy when it rains in the winter. A designer, would simply lay out the design, and let the weather happen.

What is your definition of architecture?
 

Here's the thing though, Pebble remains playable through all this. Unless it rains like a fire hydrant, Pebble is not typically "lift-clean-and-place" wet. Sure, it plays different during different seasons, but nearly all courses do.

It's on the ocean. Sometimes it rains like a "fire hydrant." I think Dugger's point is that if it rains like a "fire hydrant" at Pacific Dunes, the course does not play as different from normal as Pebble does in the same conditions.

I understand where he is trying to go with it, but its a flawed argument. He makes like a course that plays differently because of the weather is inherently inferior to a course that does not. That simply is not the case. If it were, courses like Augusta National (which so far as I know closes during the summer) or Pine Valley (which closes in winter due to snow/cold, I think) would be inferior to any and ALL courses that are able to stay open all year, because they are, for different reasons, 100% unplayable during portions of the year. The logic just doesn't work.

So Augusta National wasted their money by installing sub-air, because they gained nothing from it.

They didn't gain anything from it that improved play in the summer, that's for sure.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat mucci said:

"Just look at ANGC or Seminole in the summer.
Location and climate are major factors that have NOTHING to do with the architecture"

...

Well, Mr. Mucci, an architect would probably engineer a course so it didn't play mushy when it rains in the winter. A designer, would simply lay out the design, and let the weather happen.

Would you identify for us, five architects who qualify as engineers and five designers who don't or didn't consider ameliorating adverse weather conditions.

Could you also give us five examples of an architect who engineered a course so it didn't play mushy when it rains in the winter, and provide the name of the golf course they designed.

Thanks

What is your definition of architecture?


In a golfing sense, the routing, hole and feature design/s

[Garland Bayley]

Pat mucci said:

"Just look at ANGC or Seminole in the summer.
Location and climate are major factors that have NOTHING to do with the architecture"

...

Well, Mr. Mucci, an architect would probably engineer a course so it didn't play mushy when it rains in the winter. A designer, would simply lay out the design, and let the weather happen.

Would you identify for us, five architects who qualify as engineers and five designers who don't or didn't consider ameliorating adverse weather conditions.

Could you also give us five examples of an architect who engineered a course so it didn't play mushy when it rains in the winter, and provide the name of the golf course they designed.

Thanks

What is your definition of architecture?


In a golfing sense, the routing, hole and feature design/s

Patrick,

Are you denying that the architects on this board often write about putting in drainage on their golf courses? Wake up and smell the coffee.

I think you will find that the architects on this board also have a dim view of your definition of architecture "in a golfing sense." If you were to participate in one of the armchair contests they judge here they would make you acutely aware of that.

You're definition totally suits what they view as an armchair architect. You don't get into the nuts and bolts of architecture.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Seriously, the word that keeps getting bandied about here is architecture.

Frank Lloyd Wright architected the SC Johnson Wax headquarters building. It is a beautiful and innovative design. Unfortunately, it is my understanding that design has a flaw that results in a leaky roof. Therefore, there is an inherent flaw in the architecture. Had it been built in the Atacama desert, the architecture would have been greater as it would be better suited to it's locale.

Until Pebble Beach is architected to handle the water as well as Pacific Dunes, it will be slightly behind Pacific Dunes on that factor of the architecture.


That's a dumb comment.
PB was built nearly a century ago.
PD had to have sand capping.
And, their micro climates are different as are their soils.

In addition, PD didn't have the CCC to contend with.

Frank Gehry's Walt Disney Concert Hall is a beautiful design, but if it turns out there are structural flaws, it will be downgraded for its flawed architecture.

There are no structural flaws at PB.

How many times have you played the golf course ?

So Jamie, and Patrick, stop using the word architecture until you are willing to discuss architecture instead of esoteric "shot values" and the such.


I haven't discussed esoteric "shot values". I haven't even used the term.
You need to stop fabricating.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Pine Valley doesn't close each winter for snow/cold.

Very well, I was uncertain about it, and should have left my cold weather course at The Old White, because I know they close in winter, at least to resort play, according to their website; I've never considered going up there in December, so I am not 100% sure, but I know their website will not let you book golf in the winter.

So, ANGC in the summer (Pat Mucci, am I correct here when I say they close in summer? I'm fairly certain they do) and Old White in the winter. At any rate, some courses close totally at parts of the year. Is that an inherent flaw in the design such as you are trying to say that Pebble playing softer during rainy weather is?

Garland on a course that needs installed fairway drainage and such, I would say that after a heavy rain, even with their installed drainage, Pebble would still play better. There are A LOT of factors that determine why Pebble is not as firm as Pacific, geological, geographical, and meteorological.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I haven't discussed esoteric "shot values". I haven't even used the term.
You need to stop fabricating.

So what if you haven't used the term. When I head home from work, I say I'm going home, I don't say I'm driving a car to my house.

If you want to take out the ocean, and the drainage, and who knows what else, you have little left to discuss but "shot values" and such.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat mucci said:

"Just look at ANGC or Seminole in the summer.
Location and climate are major factors that have NOTHING to do with the architecture"

...

Well, Mr. Mucci, an architect would probably engineer a course so it didn't play mushy when it rains in the winter. A designer, would simply lay out the design, and let the weather happen.

Would you identify for us, five architects who qualify as engineers and five designers who don't or didn't consider ameliorating adverse weather conditions.

Could you also give us five examples of an architect who engineered a course so it didn't play mushy when it rains in the winter, and provide the name of the golf course they designed.

Thanks

What is your definition of architecture?


In a golfing sense, the routing, hole and feature design/s

Patrick,

Are you denying that the architects on this board often write about putting in drainage on their golf courses?


On what basis are you declaring that there's no drainage on Pebble Beach ?

Wake up and smell the coffee.

You don't need to wake up and smell the coffee, you just need to wake up.

How many times have you played Pebble Beach ?

I think you will find that the architects on this board also have a dim view of your definition of architecture "in a golfing sense."

Should I have answered in terms of buildings ?  Bridges ?  Computers ?

How do you pretend to speak for the architects on this board ?


If you were to participate in one of the armchair contests they judge here they would make you acutely aware of that.

I think the merits of my design, not your opinion of what third party architects think, would speak for itself.

You're definition totally suits what they view as an armchair architect.
You don't get into the nuts and bolts of architecture.

My experience in architecture in the U.S., in the field architecture, is exponentially greater than yours.
From the golfer's eye to the subsoil and structure/s.

I don't need a lecture from you with respect to the extent of my knowledge on the subject of architecture as it relates to golf courses.
Perhaps you should go back and read my post.  In particular, the word "feature/s".  "Feature/s" isn't the one dimensional definition you've assigned to it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

...
I haven't discussed esoteric "shot values". I haven't even used the term.
You need to stop fabricating.

So what if you haven't used the term.


It's a matter of intellectual honesty.

If I never used a word, it's disingenuous of you to attribute the use of that word to me.

It's a deliberate misrepresentation.
Tell me you understand that.

When I head home from work, I say I'm going home, I don't say I'm driving a car to my house.

Only because that would be a redundancy.
"home" and "house" are equivalent, hence you don't need to repeat your destination.

But, if you left work, and didn't indicate where you were going, you'd then need to say, "home" in order to clarify your trip

If you want to take out the ocean, and the drainage, and who knows what else, you have little left to discuss but "shot values" and such.

"Drainage" ?
What are you talking about ?  Since when doesn't PB have drainage ?

I'll ask you again, how many times have you played Pebble Beach ?[/b][/color]

[Garland Bayley]

...
I haven't discussed esoteric "shot values". I haven't even used the term.
You need to stop fabricating.

So what if you haven't used the term.


It's a matter of intellectual honesty.

If I never used a word, it's disingenuous of you to attribute the use of that word to me.

It's a deliberate misrepresentation.
Tell me you understand that.

When I head home from work, I say I'm going home, I don't say I'm driving a car to my house.

Only because that would be a redundancy.
"home" and "house" are equivalent, hence you don't need to repeat your destination.

But, if you left work, and didn't indicate where you were going, you'd then need to say, "home" in order to clarify your trip

If you want to take out the ocean, and the drainage, and who knows what else, you have little left to discuss but "shot values" and such.

"Drainage" ?
What are you talking about ?  Since when doesn't PB have drainage ?

I'll ask you again, how many times have you played Pebble Beach ?[/b][/color]

Funny, I thought we were discussing architecture, not Pebble Beach.
Oh well, Patrick will be Patrick.
Sayonara

[Patrick_Mucci]

Garland Bayley,

Your inability to answer the question, whether or not you've played Pebble Beach, would seem to indicate that you haven't.

Thus, upon what data do you declare that Pebble Beach has no drainage ?

Don't pout and run, answer the questions.

Thanks

[Garland Bayley]

Garland Bayley,

Your inability to answer the question, whether or not you've played Pebble Beach, would seem to indicate that you haven't.

Thus, upon what data do you declare that Pebble Beach has no drainage ?

Don't pout and run, answer the questions.

Thanks

I never declared Pebble Beach has no drainage. When you remove the ocean from the consideration of architecture, and I repeat that you have removed it from the consideration of architecture, you start your infamous, ill-considered rant about "have you played?", and change the topic to Pebble Beach.

You need to get over your fixation on "have you played?". Having played Pebble Beach did not qualify you to answer whether people spray balls onto the nearby properties. In fact you got it wrong. Somehow you think playing is the answer to everything. It's not, and it's unfortunate that you can't figure that out.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Garland please post where Patrick said he removed the ocean from consideration? You can't (remove it from consideration, that is) I said the course would still be great without the ocean and identical land forms, but you can't evaluate the holes without taking into consideration the ocean. Possibly not as "ocean" but as the very least as a hazard.

Here's the whole thing, which strangely only the people who haven't played the course are talking about, with the course being wet during the spring and such. The course drains fairly well on the surface. I played in late January once, the course was not as firm and fast as it was in August when I played, but it was playably firm, no standing water, no mud balls and such, all in spite of it having rained the day before. Pacific Dunes drains as well as it does because of numerous natural factors, and not because Mr. Doak magically engineered the drainage out there to work miracles. Tom can set me straight on that if he wishes (and if I'm wrong), but the fact that the Bandon area could likely receive 2 feet of rain in a 24 hour period and still be firm is not, IMO, because of how he designed the course, it is because of how well water will flow through that sandy soil; I grew up near where Doak's Riverfront was eventually designed and play it when I make it back home, I've played that course the day after a rain, in spring, and it was a mud hole. You can't design the kind of water drainage you see at Pacific, Old Macdonald, TOC, etc., thats just nature.

That is what you are not understanding here, because you either haven't played the course at all, or haven't played it off season after a rain.

[Garland Bayley]

Jamie, that would be in post 108 where he denies the ocean front aesthetics are part of the evaluation of the golf course.

Plus, it has been a long standing argument between him and others on this site over the years.

As far as he is concerned, it seems he feels it might as well be a big bunker.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Jamie, that would be in post 108 where he denies the ocean front aesthetics are part of the evaluation of the golf course.

Plus, it has been a long standing argument between him and others on this site over the years.

As far as he is concerned, it seems he feels it might as well be a big bunker.

Here's the deal, I can see where he is coming from. However, to me, the water comes into play, or at least must be dealt with, often. It is not really in play on 4 or 5, I can see the argument where it is not in play on 6 and 7, though I think it is off the tee, water is in play on 8 and 9, a little bit on 10, not on 17 and certainly in play on 18. On the same subject, I don't think the ocean is in play on 4, 11, or 13 at Pacific Dunes either, those hole evaluations are coming.

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