THM Redan! TE Paul Division - 2 Seed OldMac #12 vs #7 Seed Old White #8

« **on:** June 06, 2011, 04:50:01 PM »

Please vote for your favorite. You have till EOD Sunday. Anyone can vote, not just people who have played the holes. What I do ask of people who have played either of the holes is to advocate strongly (or speak against it) why you believe this hole deserves some love.

Happy voting!

« **Reply #1 on:** June 06, 2011, 04:51:05 PM »

TEPaul Division, #2 Seed, Old Macdonald, Hole #12, 237 yards

"From Tim Bert: The Redan at Old Macdonald is like no other that I have played. I thought I had the basic concept of a Redan down. Then I came across this one. I also talked to Jim Urbina in Bandon about the original, and I realized just how different some of the holes that I have played are from the original template. Some share similar characteristics, but most are very different in style.

Many of the ""Redans"" I have played have very clear spots to miss right of the green that could be advantageous to a shot striking the green. When I think of a Redan, I think use the kick plate on the right. At Old Macdonald, you won't be receiving any helpful kicks if you miss the green to the right!

The green is very long from front to back on a bit of a diagonal from the tee. It is severely pitched with everything running left. In a moderate to heavy wind, I would expect that this would be one of the most difficult greens in regulation on the course despite the fact that, unlike #10, everyone gets a sure fire shot at the approach since this is a par 3. "

« **Reply #2 on:** June 06, 2011, 04:52:34 PM »

TEPaul Division, #7th Seed, Old White, Hole #8, 217 yards

Why should you vote for this hole?

Just LOOK at those dragon teeth!!! You gotta love a hole like that!

Seriously, I will say this hole has pretty much everything that I look for in a great Redan, a well tilted (front to back, right to left) green, significant front right mound to properly feed the ball to the green, enough fairway to encourage a ground game, and fearsome fronting bunker.

I probably seeded it too low, if anything.

Quote from: Lester George on May 31, 2011, 06:23:40 PM

Gents,

The dragons teeth are found in the aerial photos from the twenties so I put them back in 2004. The shoulder of the green was restored and the green was put back to its original shape. The sub-grade was kept as it was in the twenties. Like the dragons teeth or not, Raynor left them there.

Lester

« **Reply #3 on:** June 06, 2011, 05:15:47 PM »

The pictures of Old Mac probably don't do this hole justice - the overcast sky and open nature of the course make it diffivult to make-out the details. I love the look of Old White and the chocolate drop mounds at a lot of visual interest. Old White.

« **Reply #4 on:** June 06, 2011, 05:22:10 PM »

Old White. Dragon teeth add something special to the hole.

« **Reply #5 on:** June 06, 2011, 05:28:06 PM »

Old White. More unique hole and I guess I have to vote that one over Old Mac because it was done by one of the originators of the templates and that makes it better in my mind as well.

« **Reply #6 on:** June 06, 2011, 05:38:30 PM »

Old White because of the kick mound.

« **Reply #7 on:** June 06, 2011, 05:40:20 PM »

« **Reply #8 on:** June 06, 2011, 05:44:01 PM »

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.............................NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Old Mac

The Dragon's Teeth must go down this round!!!! Where are the Butt Boys when you need'em!!!

Although if you put a tree in front of the Dragon's Teeth and a pond inside the bunker, then maybe I'd be onboard with the concept. Double jeopardy...no...quadruple...yes!!!

« **Reply #9 on:** June 06, 2011, 05:47:52 PM »

I am going to have to vote for Old White.

I played Old Mac, and it was a 3-wood directly into the winter wind. It was hard to focus on any Redan-esque aspects of the hole. I was just hoping my shot would make it halfway to the green. As a hole, the 12th at Old Mac is solid. As it stacks up as a Redan, I don't think it works as well - although I am not as scholarly on the textbook definition of a Redan. And one should note that the hole might play much more as a Redan downwind in the summer, as Tom Doak noted that Mr. Keiser asked him to design the course with the summer wind in mind.

Tim's comments that Richard posted are important to keep in mind. A Redan may be more about certain general characteristics as opposed to strictly obeying a long checklist of features. And Old Mac's Redan may well offer the player more options than Old White's Redan, where the shot is practically diagrammed out for the player (based on these pictures).

But those pictures of Old White's Redan are just plain badass. One almost wants to hit the ball right at the chocolate drops in hopes of getting a chance to pull off a crazy up and down.

« **Reply #10 on:** June 06, 2011, 05:55:11 PM »

I was pleasantly re-educated on the characteristics of the Redan!

If you look at the original Redan from NB in the other thread....it would seem the Redan at Old Mac is far more faithful to the original concept than is the one at Old White. It has the two fronting bunkers that aren't really in play, and a much more abrupt slope up to the green, just like the original. But I'm still torn because I really love those dragon teeth at OW. While my "soul" says OW, I gotta go with Old Mac because it seems more redan'ish in look...but this is a close one, no doubt.

Another vote for Old Mac

« **Reply #11 on:** June 06, 2011, 06:33:51 PM »

I doubt I am eligible to vote. Obviuosly I am partial to the Old White but not for the reasons you may think. Mostly because it was built by Seth Raynor at Macdonalds approval. It has remained largely intact for almost 100 years. Can't beat that in my mind.

Lester

« **Reply #12 on:** June 06, 2011, 06:37:34 PM »

Lester, you are certainly eligible to vote. I actually would welcome you to actively discuss why people should vote for Old White!

Can you share with us what makes Old White such a great redan hole?

« **Reply #13 on:** June 06, 2011, 06:56:33 PM »

Richard,

Like I said, Seth Raynor built it. The Dragons teeth were there when he was last there. They were removed as was the "shoulder" in the late 30's. From aerial photos, the hole was faithfully restored to Raynors but the foundation of a great Redan was always there. This was one of Sam Sneads favorite holes ever from what I have been told.

It is just the "real thing". Not to take away from others, but I think it is one of the most accurate ones left out there. Tom Paul spent almost an hour studying it with me last summer, I think he really liked it as well.

Lester

« **Reply #14 on:** June 06, 2011, 07:14:57 PM »

I haven't seen Old White but the chocolate drop mounds do'nt do it for me.

For the sake of the exercise - OM gets my vote.

« **Reply #15 on:** June 06, 2011, 08:04:49 PM »

Old White

« **Reply #16 on:** June 06, 2011, 08:53:35 PM »

Lester...

I hope you know I'm just being a goof! I said in the last round that I do like the way the Dragon's Teeth look and I realize it is a true Seth Raynor restoration. I actually think the restoration work and detail with which you did it was/is spectacular. For the record, I am not bagging on you at all. I'm just continuing the friendly goofing around that I did with Scott Warren on the last thread.

And, again, like I said in the last thread...I don't fully understand the neccessity for the double jeopary hazard, no matter how cool it looks. And, again, I know it was a Raynor idea.

« **Reply #17 on:** June 06, 2011, 09:15:26 PM »

I'm taking the Dragon's Teeth all the way to a Championship Ring, baby!! Then we're taking that ring down the hock shop and getting the Dragon's Teeth a free tattoo reading "GCA.com Top Redan 2011".

It's easy to love Redan holes when you hit a draw!

I vote Old White.

« **Reply #18 on:** June 06, 2011, 09:25:59 PM »

I'm taking the Dragon's Teeth all the way to a Championship Ring, baby!!

Oh, the horror!!

« **Reply #19 on:** June 15, 2011, 12:02:07 PM »

Old White in a HUGE 9-3 upset over OldMac!

Wow, I didn't see that one coming...

« **Reply #20 on:** June 15, 2011, 12:46:25 PM »

Quote from: Richard Choi on June 15, 2011, 12:02:07 PM

Old White in a HUGE 9-3 upset over OldMac!

Wow, I didn't see that one coming...

Its a sad day in GCA.com history when a dragons tooth, mountain-man version beats out one of the most faithful links-style Redan tributes I've ever seen.

« **Reply #21 on:** June 15, 2011, 01:03:53 PM »

Old white. I love the look of the dragons teeth and think they only enhance the hole. They aren't really a hazard in the sense they look about 30 yds short of the green and if you ended up in one it is just an akward stance in rough. I consider double hazards as being in a bunker having to hit a hook or slice around a tree. Having an akward stance to me doesn't mean you shouldn't have to hit it over a bunker

« **Reply #22 on:** June 15, 2011, 01:52:07 PM »

Kalen,

Maybe you should see the Old White.

Lester

« **Reply #23 on:** June 15, 2011, 01:54:58 PM »

Old White.

Template plus quirk on a classic course faithfully restored by Lester George? How can you go wrong?

« **Reply #24 on:** June 15, 2011, 02:00:58 PM »

Lester,

Certainly did not mean that as a personal attack. The hole does indeed look very interesting and I'd love to take a crack at that beauty as I love quirky holes.

I was only specifically referring to the context of this exercise... a redan match play contest.

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