[Mac Plumart]

Mac,

You should credit Brad Klein wth the routing is destiny comment.  He is right, though.


Jeff...that was the idea behind the italicized "I'd" and the winking emoticon.  It is from his book "Rough Meditations".  A must read for any architectural goof balls!

[Sean_A]

Pat

Ease, comfort and playability of routing are all-important to me and that includes incorporating the house as the 0 and 19th holes.  Its fine to veer away from a compact design once or twice if there is a huge reward for the golfer.  But I think it very important in creating the routing that each hole has its own visual starting point.  Today, too many archies are too concerned (among all sorts of other self-imposed mumbo jumbo that they often blame H&S for) with the tee being the visual start of a hole when that needn't be the case at all.  I find it annoying to walk myself out of a blind area just to reach a tee.  Unless blindness is a persistent problem I don't want my routing extending for the pleasure of view from the tee.  I always site Tobacco Road as the perfect case in point.  There is no doubt in my mind that there is plenty of creativity and great golf shots to call it a great course, but the many long walks breaking up the rhythm of the game drag the TR down to a see if in the general area type place for me and one I would never consider joining if it had memberships.  A good walk can make up for some mediocre architecture.

Joe

Erin Hills looks too designed from for the back tees.  There are too many longish forward walks for the guy playing 6500 yards is you ask me.  

Ciao  

[Jud_T]

Sean,

It certainly isn't the easiest walk.  If I recall correctly there's 1 or 2 fairly long green to tee walks even beyond allowing for silly long back teeing grounds....

[Anthony Butler]

Pinehurst #2 before they put in the US Open tees.

[David Harshbarger]

My home course would probably fail both the routing intimacy test and liability test.  The drive from the first green to the second tee is about 5 feet, and the second tee is pin high to the first green.  Both me and my kids have played shots through the tee box.

The 3rd and 5th both feature long walk backs, such that many members play their 3rd drive (conditions permitting) on their way to the 2nd Green, and sometimes drop an approach on 5.

Then, when playing the Blue tees (2nd nine), the tee box for 7 is benched into the hill above the 6th green, (which is benched above the rest of the tees for 7), requiring a drive over the green.

1925.  Different standards.  And while the walk backs stink, overall, the course's intimacy is very charming.

[Jeff Shelman]

My course (1919) also has several walkbacks. They are to the third, fourth, seventh and 16th tees.

I don't mind them that much as it allows golfers to put their bag down and either walk ahead to the green with just a putter (or putter and wedge) or back to the tee with just a driver.

I do like routings that feature short walks between greens and tees. That said, a couple of longer walks don't bother me that much. At some point, however, I reach a tipping point.

[Tom Yost]

I'm not a rater, but it's my guess that The Canyon Course at Ventana Canyon would get low marks for "ease and intimacy of routing."

 

[David_Madison]

Patrick,

Some other factors that lead to "Ease of Routing":

I always want to feel like I am moving forward through the course as I'm walking. I want to be making progress through the round each step of the way. Gentle changes in direction are okay as long as they relate to the flow of the site. But unless it is done artfully and appropriately to the land, going back and forth with a succession of holes running in opposite direction is not terribly pleasing. 

I don't want to be taking big detours around stuff as I go from tee to fairway or from fairway to green. Maybe a couple of times during the round its okay, especially if the walk is scenic, but not hole after hole.

Elevation changes happen within the holes, as features of the architecture. They don't happen frequently in green to tee transitions except to set up something very special on the upcoming tee shot.

The "moving forward" part can also be violated to a limited degree for cases where I have to go backwards to a back tee. But generally speaking, I want that natural forward walk from the green just finished to take me directly the the regular men's tee.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jeff, I loved that comment. It brought to mind the 13th and 14th at Bandon Dunes. The 14th tee is too close to the same distance from incoming fairway shots as the green. Even worse is the hitting area is somewhat blind to those on the tee. I would think 20 yards behind a green is great unless people are incoming with a fairway wood from 220 or so. This is the case at Bandon Dunes 17 tee where shots trying to drive the green on 16 can easily one hop into players on 17 tee.

[Andy Troeger]

I'm not a rater, but it's my guess that The Canyon Course at Ventana Canyon would get low marks for "ease and intimacy of routing."

 

I thought about using that one as my example for disjointed, but the holes at Harbor Shores are a lot better so its a more interesting example. Ventana Canyon's (Canyon) front nine wasn't bad, but the mile-ride to the 1st tee and back to the 10th tee (complete with map) is certainly unique!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy,

Routing is the bones of the course.

Ease of routing speaks to the continuity of play and the quality of the routing.

In the early years, Atlantic was criticized for the crossovers, however those critical of Atlantic gave Merion a pass for the same perceived flaw in the routing.

The conflict which an architect might face is that of incorporating a wonderful hole, dictated by the terrain, which is at odds with a routing that presents continuity.  That may create a difficult choice.

I always thought that that was the ultimate choice that C & C had to make at Sand Hills.
There, they found 100 terrific holes, some probably far better than some of the final 18.
But, they had to balance the quality of the individual holes against  a combination of quality holes that fit into a routing that would provide a sense of continuity.

Sand Hills. To me, has the "Rossian" quality of high tee, low fairway, high green.
Each of the holes seem isolated from one another, yet the routing provides a degree of continuity.

One has to ask, how could some of the best of the discarded holes have been incorporated into the current (moderately altered) routing ?

And, was there ever any thought given to originally crafting a 36 hole complex,

And, could another 18 be crafted from the remaining 82 holes from the constellation routing ?

[David_Madison]

Patrick - When I visited Sandhills last year, I asked Dick Youngscap adding another 18. He said that from a routing and quality of hole perspective it would be easy. The problem or issue was that he would have a problem finding the staff necessary to maintain the course and operate the likely larger facility that the course expansion would entail. There just aren't enough available people out in the area, and when the college kids go back to school in August he has to get very creative to maintain the necessary staffing to keep the place going at the high standards he maintains.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

It would be interesting to see which of the remaining holes in the Constellation routing would comprise the second 18

[David_Madison]

Patrick,

Agreed. It'll never happen but... If you added 18 more holes, and let's assume those holes are every bit as good as the original 18, would you automatically take those new holes and make them a new course? Or, would you consider breaking up the existing routing and creating two new courses? Pretty radical thought to bust up a top 10 course, but if you could create two new courses every bit as good...

And going way outside the box, given the expansive nature of the property and the low amount of play at any given time, could you create alternative hole sequences and let players change up the course sequencing day to day? You'd still have your core or original 18, but then have an amazing variety of playing alternatives.

[Jud_T]

Why would it never happen?  Anyone seen the recent unemployment stats?  I'd think there's plenty of unemployed college grads who'd happily spend a season working at one of the best golf courses on the planet...

[Dan Kelly]

Why would it never happen?  Anyone seen the recent unemployment stats?  I'd think there's plenty of unemployed college grads who'd happily spend a season working at one of the best golf courses on the planet...

Build it, and they will come....

[Adam Clayman]

I can't speak definitively on the subject, but, the staffing issue is a real one. The idea to break up the existing course is insulting, imo. Herb Kohler did that at BWR and ruined the architects art all for the sake of revenue. I'd be very surprised if DY would appreciably improve his bottomline by adding another 18. Believe me, I know it's been considered and I would trust Dick's judgement.   

[David_Madison]

Adam:

I would never suggest breaking up the original eighteen. What I was suggesting was simply a thought experiment. What if by having 36 holes on the property, and the new holes were as good as the current 18, could you maybe come up with something better than what's there now? It might be fun if we had access to the property map that shows all of the potential holes, and we had more complete information about each potential hole, to put together different routings. But it would be just a paper effort, as it will never happen for the reasons we've both mentioned.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Crafting a new 18 holes from the remaining 82 holes in the constellation routing would seem to be the most prudent thing to do.

You already have a top 10 course, why tinker with it.

Create a brand new course and you'd generate more interest.

I don't like the concept of a selective routing amongst a 27 or 36 complex.
I've always felt that TCC was gerrymandered in order to produce a more favorable ranking.

Mongrelizing to create a combo course doesn't appeal to me.  I think the flow tends to get disrupted.

So, I'd opt to keep them seperate, just like Pinehurst did.

[David_Madison]

Patrick,

What you had the same architect(s) doing the same style holes? Pinehurst isn't quite as homogeneous. You could still always have the original 18, and could access/play it any time you liked. But then had alternate routings as well. Wouldn't work in a big, high play club, but in at a place like Sand Hills, with relatively limited play of a very golf-savvy group, finding alternate paths through the course, such as it was, would be fun.

Is Ridgewood a case of taking three wonderful nines but from them crafting an even better 18? If you remove any memory of history there, and take away any concept of tradition, and just have the 27 holes lying there, is a composite 18 such as they used for the recent PGA Tour event the best 18 available? Going back to the beginning of your discussion thread, is there any less "ease of routing" in the composite 18 than there is among the original nines?

Going back to Sand Hills and "ease of routing", from strictly the routing point of view and ignoring what we both agree is the greatness of the current 18, couldn't you perhaps integrate a new set of 18 holes such that an intermingling produces two wonderfully routed courses? If C&C's assignment was to do a 36 hole complex all at one time, do you think the original 18 would have emerged intact? Again, just thought experiments, but interesting to ponder.

[Adam Clayman]

David. It is an interesting thought exercise. I sense that as futile as it is, something inside tells me that even the thought of it would somehow be insulting to Mr. Coore. I can't imagine the miles he "tinkered" figuring the best route amongst the constellation. I used tinkered because that's how DY described it to me when Bill went looking for what became most of the back nine. What's really interesting is how on their initial visit they hadn't gotten far enough away from the river and told DY that the ground they saw wasn't all that great for golf. This does disprove that great golfing ground is everywhere in the SH. But, it sure doesn't disprove that there's a lot. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

How about a Royal Melbourne sort of concept..teo seperate courses that you can make a composite out of, should you desire?
Best of both worlds n'est pas ?

Either way..please somebody build another 18...another excuse to visit paradise would be nice...36 holes at Ballyneal, get in the car and drive to Sand Hills for another 36....
"is This Heaven....no it's Nebraksa !!!

[Sean Leary]

Patrick,

When did the composite course at TCC first happen? I guess I always thought it was done for the US Open, not for rankings initially.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Sorry just saw thw TTC reference which came before my post..same concept..also somewhat of a similar resultfrom what I have been told, the Royal Melbourne composite also disrupts the normal flow of the course..opinions?

[David_Madison]

Adam,

Certainly no insult ever intended to Mr. Coore. If his mission was to create 36 holes, how many of the original 18 would have made it into the 36? We'd like to think all 18, but maybe not. Some compromises had to be made so that he could get the course back to the starting point on each of the two loops. But had there been four loops of 9, or even 2 loops of 18, maybe he would have used different choices. Isn't it possible that there were even better holes out there but that he just couldn't use because they didn't work with the routings?

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