[Carl Nichols]

Carl:

I've never thought it that hard, played off the proper tees. I recall it as not being that long, so you'd have a 7-iron at most to the green, and although it's a pretty big ridge to carry, 7-iron at most doesn't seem to me to be that onerous in terms of getting a second shot up and over that ridge.

I've heard that complaint, too. I'm not convinced it's too difficult -- but it does require a tee shot over water, to a target that narrows the closer you get to the ideal landing zone (which, given the nature of the second shot, most folks want as much length off the tee as they can get), with a blind approach shot, to a funky green with alot of potential for run-offs, the way Dye designed it. That's a lot of stuff going on, admittedly, but I don't think of it as a back-breaker.

It's definitely not that long, and you're right that it should be a relatively short iron.  It just strikes me as a hole where a below average resort player could get into a lot of trouble -- river left, trees right, lost ball opportunities short and left of the green -- and so you'd have problems with place of play right off the bat. 

[Matthew Petersen]

Carl:

I've never thought it that hard, played off the proper tees. I recall it as not being that long, so you'd have a 7-iron at most to the green, and although it's a pretty big ridge to carry, 7-iron at most doesn't seem to me to be that onerous in terms of getting a second shot up and over that ridge.

I've heard that complaint, too. I'm not convinced it's too difficult -- but it does require a tee shot over water, to a target that narrows the closer you get to the ideal landing zone (which, given the nature of the second shot, most folks want as much length off the tee as they can get), with a blind approach shot, to a funky green with alot of potential for run-offs, the way Dye designed it. That's a lot of stuff going on, admittedly, but I don't think of it as a back-breaker.

It's definitely not that long, and you're right that it should be a relatively short iron.  It just strikes me as a hole where a below average resort player could get into a lot of trouble -- river left, trees right, lost ball opportunities short and left of the green -- and so you'd have problems with place of play right off the bat. 

There was a thread (last year perhaps?) about the original/composite/Championship course where several people made the case that the true original course featured the MV nine as the back nine, so the hole in question would have been the tenth, not the first.

[Joe Bausch]

For the upcoming 2012 US Women's Open, that hole will be the first on the composite course.

[Carl Nichols]

Carl:

I've never thought it that hard, played off the proper tees. I recall it as not being that long, so you'd have a 7-iron at most to the green, and although it's a pretty big ridge to carry, 7-iron at most doesn't seem to me to be that onerous in terms of getting a second shot up and over that ridge.

I've heard that complaint, too. I'm not convinced it's too difficult -- but it does require a tee shot over water, to a target that narrows the closer you get to the ideal landing zone (which, given the nature of the second shot, most folks want as much length off the tee as they can get), with a blind approach shot, to a funky green with alot of potential for run-offs, the way Dye designed it. That's a lot of stuff going on, admittedly, but I don't think of it as a back-breaker.

It's definitely not that long, and you're right that it should be a relatively short iron.  It just strikes me as a hole where a below average resort player could get into a lot of trouble -- river left, trees right, lost ball opportunities short and left of the green -- and so you'd have problems with place of play right off the bat. 

There was a thread (last year perhaps?) about the original/composite/Championship course where several people made the case that the true original course featured the MV nine as the back nine, so the hole in question would have been the tenth, not the first.

Interesting.  I played it first, but I can't recall whether that's because they sent us off the back that day.

[Phil McDade]

Adam and others:

I think you could develop a better course for the Women's Open not by flipping nines, but by changing the proposed 18th hole to the 9th, and the 9th to the 18th. Herb just needs to put in one more bridge -- in between the proposed 17th green and 18th tee, to just south of the 8th green. Easy walk across the bridge to the new 9th (now the proposed 18th) hole, and a modest walk from the current 17th green to the new 18th (now the proposed 9th in the Women's Open routing). That way, you make the death-and-glory 9th hole play as the 18th -- a much better finish.

[Adam Clayman]

Phil. My guess is yhe reason for flipping the nines is for better viewing of the closer. Certainly from an analytical perspective the current closer, the old 9th, does not hold a candle to the MV closer or closing stretch.

[Joe Bausch]

Let's finish up the back nine at Meadow Valleys with the last six holes today.  And they are a pretty darn nice set, IMO.

The 13th is called "Chimney", a pretty good name for this dogleg-left par 4 with a very elevated approach shot to a plateau green.



Green tee view:



The green and flag were hard to detect in this lighting from the right rough, but it is sitting there on the flat, propped up area:



From short and right of the green:



This has better lighting, from over the green:



As nifty as that last short par 4 was, the 14th might be better.



Green tee view, where you tee off somewhat away from the river, but the green is up against the water on this dogleg-right (you might be able to detect the green way to the right):



Downhill approach shot view:



From just short of the green:



View from the next elevated tee:



You don't get much of a breather on this bunkerless par 3 15th.



Green tee view:



View of the green from the 16th tee:



From right of the green, which slopes to the back from the middle part on:



The last par 5 awaits on the 16th.



Green tee view with a blind tee shot.  My pic here probably is shifted too far to the right, but the big hitter might take this line:



Here's a look back to the tees from the big hitter's landing area; lots of room to play safe left off the tee:



Approach shot view (huge bunker right to be avoided):



From short of the green:



From over the green:



A par 3 awaits at the 17th:



Green tee view with one problematic tree to be negotiated:



There is this short grass area short and right of the green:



From the left edge of the green looking back, even the forward tee (92 yards) has a nerve-wracking shot in:



From over the green, where bail out area is present right:



The 18th takes you back to the clubhouse and a green that is shared with 18 of the river course; unless you are playing the forward tees, where there is a green short of the creek to play to.



View from the tips, a little tiny tee box that is very elevated:



View from the green tee, with both greens in view:



The forward tees play to this green:



Approach shot view for all others:

[

From left of the green you can see the flag for the 18th on the River course:



If you wish to view all the photos from Meadow Valleys, in a much wider format than those above, go here:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/BlackwolfRunMV/index.html

I hope you enjoyed the two courses at Blackwolf Run!

On Monday I'll continue the tour from the two courses at Whistling Straits.

[Matt Kardash]

This is such an amazing stretch of holes

[Phil McDade]

Matt's right -- this is Dye at his best, and you can clearly see the influence of Raynor and Langford in some of his bunkering and pushed-up greensites here.

To me, 15 is the best hole of the 36-hole complex. Just a great par 3, with a terrific green by Dye that affords numerous pin placements. The photos, excellent as they are in this thread, don't do justice to the majesty of that tee shot -- it's an enormous target, but  trouble nearly all around, and death short and left. And 18 is a great closer.

[Carl Nichols]

Matt's right -- this is Dye at his best, and you can clearly see the influence of Raynor and Langford in some of his bunkering and pushed-up greensites here.

To me, 15 is the best hole of the 36-hole complex. Just a great par 3, with a terrific green by Dye that affords numerous pin placements. The photos, excellent as they are in this thread, don't do justice to the majesty of that tee shot -- it's an enormous target, but  trouble nearly all around, and death short and left. And 18 is a great closer.

I would put 15 high on the list as well, though I would probably have 12 at MV and 16 at BWR above it.  I didn't love 14 at MV as much as others do -- maybe it's an aversion to railroad ties (or similar) and water.

[PCCraig]

This is such an amazing stretch of holes

Amen to that. Some incredible holes.

#15's green plays (is?) a barritz that is attacked from the side. Long chips and putts from one side to the next are a lot of fun.

You could play #11-17 over and over again and you'd be one happy camper.

[Adam Clayman]

This is different than my recollection.



That bunker is new. There originally was a sea of those mogul mounds, sans bunker.

[Joe Bausch]

Time to start up the Irish course at Whistling Straits today.  This was the last Kohler course I played, but I thought I would present it now and save the Straits course for the end.

Here is the routing, where the course sits just west of the Straits course, a bit more inland:



#1.  Slightly uphill par 4.



Tee shot view:



Less ideal approach shot view (better is farther right with the drive):



From short of the green:



From the mound over the green:



#2.  Slight dogleg-left par 4.



Tee shot view:



Approach shot view:



From just left of the green:



From right of the green on the way to the next tee:



#3.  Par 3.



Tee shot view:



From the front of the green:



From over the green:



More soon.

[Anthony Gray]

  Very aesthetic. The centerline bunkering add a nice touch.

  Anthony

[Matt Kardash]

I've never played the Irish course, and have heard many poor reviews on this site. The first two holes don't really appear to be anything special, but the 3rd hole looks like an appealing short par 3 to me.

[Adam Clayman]

I've never played either of the two new courses. You are on your own. Thanks Joe for the memory lane.

[George Freeman]

  Very aesthetic. The centerline bunkering add a nice touch.

  Anthony

Anthony - what centerline bunkering?  I don't see any in the first three holes.

[PCCraig]

The Irish Course is a bit of a mixed bag, as evidenced by the first three holes on the course. While the 1st and 3rd are pretty neat/good holes, the 2nd is effectively a Pete Dye "template"...and not even a good one at that (just a longer opposite version of #14 River?).

[Matt Kardash]

The Irish Course is a bit of a mixed bag, as evidenced by the first three holes on the course. While the 1st and 3rd are pretty neat/good holes, the 2nd is effectively a Pete Dye "template"...and not even a good one at that (just a longer opposite version of #14 River?).

In all fairness, the 2nd at the Irish appears to be nothing like the 14th at the River. The only comparable is that they both have water laterally on the tee shot. Besides that fact I don't see how anything else about the holes is the same.

[PCCraig]

The Irish Course is a bit of a mixed bag, as evidenced by the first three holes on the course. While the 1st and 3rd are pretty neat/good holes, the 2nd is effectively a Pete Dye "template"...and not even a good one at that (just a longer opposite version of #14 River?).

In all fairness, the 2nd at the Irish appears to be nothing like the 14th at the River. The only comparable is that they both have water laterally on the tee shot. Besides that fact I don't see how anything else about the holes is the same.

Matt,

Correct me if I'm wrong but the way I see the holes are similar is that the closer the player keeps his tee shot to the water hazard, the better and clearer the approach angle is on the 2nd shot. If the player favors the opposite side of the fairway, the green is partially blind and is forced to carry a bunker.

[Joe Bausch]

#4.  Dogleg-left par 4.



Tee shot view:



From the beginning of the fw:



Approach shot view:



From over the green:



#5.  Dogleg-right par 5.



Tee shot view:



2nd shot view where many will lay up:



Approach shot view:



From short of the green:



From over the green:



#6.  Island green short par 3.



Tee shot view:



From over the green:



From right of the green:



More later.

[Joe Bausch]

Time to finish the front nine at the Irish Course today before the weekend hits.

The 7th is a real neat par 4 with a two-tiered fairway.

#7.  Par 4.



Tee shot view:



Approach shot view if you take the preferred 'high road' to the left:



From the left edge of the green:



From over the green:



#8. Dogleg-right par 5.



Tee shot view:



Approach shot view where the cross bunker must be dealt with:



From 75 yards out:



From just short and right of the green:



From over the green:



The front-nine closes with another par 4 that I liked, the par 4 9th:

#9.  Par 4.



Tee shot view:



Approach shot view:



Short of the green is trouble:



From just right of the green:



From over the green:



Back-nine starts on Monday most likely.

[PCCraig]

I really like holes #5-7 and #9. In particular I'm partial to the approach on #5 as it has a quasi-redan look which is neat. The 6th isn't too hard but I like how the green is surrounded by sand and not water, which an island water green tends to be far more punishing for a poor golfer...where at least the sand gives the same player a shot. #7 is a neat hole that looks like it could be on the MV course. I think #9 is actually in many ways a better version of Straits #18.

[Matt Kardash]

Yeah, just based on the photos the stretch of 6 (or maybe 5) thru 9 seems to be more interesting than the opening stretch.
Both par 3's kinda look fun so far.

[Greg Tallman]

  Very aesthetic. The centerline bunkering add a nice touch.

  Anthony

Anthony - what centerline bunkering?  I don't see any in the first three holes.

George, Anthony's center is slightly different than yours and mine.

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