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Matthew Mollica

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The World's Best Short Par 4s
« on: June 04, 2011, 08:56:10 AM »
It's been suggested the second at St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta) is potentially the best short 4 in the world.

With which holes is it competing for the title, and is it indeed the best?

Barnbougle Dunes 4
Royal Melbourne West 10
Riviera 10

and a few others have to give it a run for it's money...

MM
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Mac Plumart

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2011, 09:00:52 AM »
Inverness 18

Rivermont 11
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Duncan Cheslett

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2011, 09:10:07 AM »
Reddish Vale 16 8)
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Jud_T

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 09:14:12 AM »
Pac Dunes #6
Kingsley #13
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Kevin Pallier

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 09:15:21 AM »
MM

Are you thinking driveable or one's that are thereabouts ?

Kingston Heath 3
Royal Adelaide 3

are probably in the former and holes like

CPC 9
Bandon Trails 14
NSW 14

are probably in the later


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Keith OHalloran

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2011, 09:21:09 AM »
7 at Sand Hills is my favorite.
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Jim Nugent

Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2011, 09:29:53 AM »
From the gallery: #7 at Olympic Lake (before the change, don't know now)... and #10 at Belfry both look real exciting. 
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Bill_McBride

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2011, 10:22:04 AM »
Deal #6  ;D

Old Macdonald #13.  ;D

Elie #6, 7, 9, 13.   ;D ;D
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Tom_Doak

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2011, 10:48:18 AM »
I just did a list for GOLF Magazine of the best holes under 300 yards:

#4 St. Enodoc
#7 Sand Hills
#10 The Belfry
#9 Cypress Point
#4 Barnbougle Dunes

Didn't want to list more than one of my own, and I thought St. Andrews Beach was a bit too obscure, but it's nice to see it have some support.

If you want to get into the best holes under 350 yards, well, there are a ton of candidates.  Cypress Point, Crystal Downs, Pine Valley, and St. Andrews each have 3-4 contenders by themselves.  Merion and National, too.

Streamsong is going to have its own contenders.  Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw have both told my crew they think our best hole is the par-4 13th, which is only about 305 yards.  I think their best hole (so far) is the short par-4 ninth, which is maybe 330 yards with a wild green; and their short par-4 17th would also be in the running.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 12:14:30 PM by Tom_Doak »
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Tom_Doak

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2011, 10:50:54 AM »
Sorry, duplicate post.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 12:13:59 PM by Tom_Doak »
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2011, 10:55:57 AM »
They are playing a pretty good one this week at Muirfield Village--number 14. Years ago,  my 16 year old son had a chance to break 80 forth first time until he made 7 at this hole. He ended up shooting 81.
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Mac Plumart

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2011, 11:10:15 AM »
The thing that is great about these kind of holes is the mind games it plays on golfers.

For instance, Rivermont 11 is drivable.  265ish from the tees I usually play, 275ish from the next ones back.  Everytime I take someone there, whether they've played the hole before or not, they are compelled to try to drive the green.  The green is teeny with a pretty nasty shelf/ridge/nob thingy in the middle and it has a very nasty Devils A$$hole bunker short and left and a normal bunker short and right.  And, of course, a cross bunker maybe 60-70yards short of the green.  Oh yeah, if you go long your dead in the junk.

A drive is, almost certainly, not the shot to play.  But they can't help themselves.  I play 6 iron, easy wedge, and generally have a birdie putt.  Play it smart and you are generally good to go, get caught up in the moment and bogey might be a good score.

Great hole concept.

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Patrick_Mucci

Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2011, 11:18:06 AM »
# 10 Riviera
# 1 NGLA
# 2 NGLA
# 14 NGLA
# 17 NGLA
# 1 GCGC
# 5 GCGC
# 9 GCGC
# 14 GCGC
#8 Hidden Creek
# 11 PHCC
# 1 Westhampton
# 5 Somerset Hills
# 17 ".      "
# 18  ".      "
# 1 ECE
# 2 ECE
# 8 Montclair 2nd nine
# 4 ".               3rd nine
# 7 ".               1st nine
# 6 ".               4th nine
# 4. PB
# 17 Maidstone
# 9 Baltusrol Upper
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Mark Bourgeois

Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2011, 11:19:45 AM »
I am determined to see Ganton 14 get its rightful due.

I never see it on lists of great sub-300 yard holes yet it possesses all the criteria I feel make for greatness in the class:
1) multitude of options? check
2) no dominant strategy? check
3) aesthetics? check
4) originality? well, for starters I feel Royal Melbourne West 10 owes a design debt to it...so: check

These are my original criteria, per this thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31780.0.html

Per that discussion, I would add:
5) of interest and challenge to those unable to drive the green? check

It baffles me why Ganton 14 does not receive greater acclaim. For those who worship at the shrine of short 4s, this... he said, drawing himself up to his full length...this, my children, is A Hole For All Seasons.

PS SAB 2 is an excellent hole...but no way it's the best. It's not even best -- or second-best -- in Australia.
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Mac Plumart

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2011, 11:23:04 AM »
Pat M...

Seems like this NGLA course you keep talking about needs to move some of those tee boxes back.  The course must be too short to be any good.   :)
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Tom_Doak

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2011, 12:15:36 PM »
Quote from: Mark Bourgeois on June 04, 2011, 11:19:45 AM
I am determined to see Ganton 14 get its rightful due.

I never see it on lists of great sub-300 yard holes yet it possesses all the criteria I feel make for greatness in the class:
1) multitude of options? check
2) no dominant strategy? check
3) aesthetics? check
4) originality? well, for starters I feel Royal Melbourne West 10 owes a design debt to it...so: check

These are my original criteria, per this thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31780.0.html

Per that discussion, I would add:
5) of interest and challenge to those unable to drive the green? check

It baffles me why Ganton 14 does not receive greater acclaim. For those who worship at the shrine of short 4s, this... he said, drawing himself up to his full length...this, my children, is A Hole For All Seasons.

PS SAB 2 is an excellent hole...but no way it's the best. It's not even best -- or second-best -- in Australia.

Mark:

That hole at Ganton is an excellent choice.  How could I forget it?

Well, maybe because it's been 25 years since I was there last.
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Gary Slatter

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2011, 12:22:41 PM »
12 and 16 on the Old Course are two of my favourites, short but frought with danger.  The 17th at TPC Scottsdale is also a fun short par 4.
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Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Kris Shreiner

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2011, 12:37:13 PM »
# 4- Spyglass Hill- the graveyard of many an AT&T pro...and countless others.

I've never seen another short hole even close to as vexing as this one. They've screwed with it a little through the years, but properly presented, with firmness in the apron and surrounds, it's all-world.

If I recall correctly, Phil the Thrill had a bit of a luckout birdie there, chipping in a flag rattler the year he shot 62 there ..and followed it up with a six the next go the following year.

Tom's call with #9 at Cyp is bang on and #4 at Pebble, with the length the gorillas hit it now, has become more exciting, as Dustin Johnson proved with driving it the one round and then putting it in the right gunch the next time through. I think Phil drove it as well and then three putted one round.

#17 at Royal Dornoch is another epic one that big hitters can take on when conditions are right, but it will beat your ass if you're not careful. It also provides numerous options for the mortals who must figure out another way.
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"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Niall C

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2011, 12:47:12 PM »
Let me put forward the 9th and 10th at Old Moray, which extend to 310 and 318 at full stretch and 278 and 252 respectively off the yellows. Both have gorse, heather and deep pot bunkers as well as grass bunkers. They also play in different directions offering a different challenge for each.

Both come after two of the longer par 4's on the course which I think adds to their appeal.

Niall
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Alex Miller

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2011, 01:43:04 PM »
Rustic's short par 4's are fantastic too.

#3 is a truly great driveable par 4 with multiple options and great strategy

#12 is probably just out of reach depending on the wind, but the green is very cool and appropriate for a wedge or short pitch.
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Jim Johnson

Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2011, 01:57:58 PM »
Another vote for Pac Dunes #6.

Tom, would you care to comment on your creation? It would be neat to read your thoughts on that particular hole.

For those of you who've yet to experience it...


« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 02:16:56 PM by Jim Johnson »
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Phil McDade

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2011, 03:46:05 PM »
Short is an elastic word. :D

Surprised 20 posts into this no one has mentioned the 10th at Riveria or the 17th at Oakmont, or several candidates at Merion East.

I'll post some pics of some candidates of my own sometime this weekend.
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Alex Miller

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2011, 03:55:54 PM »
Quote from: Matthew Mollica on June 04, 2011, 08:56:10 AM
It's been suggested the second at St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta) is potentially the best short 4 in the world.

With which holes is it competing for the title, and is it indeed the best?

Barnbougle Dunes 4
Royal Melbourne West 10
Riviera 10

and a few others have to give it a run for it's money...

MM

Riviera's 10th was in the first post! Also Merion east has been mentioned as having a few candidates (by Tom_Doak), but I too am surprised Oakmont's 17th hasn't been brought up.
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Travis Dewire

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2011, 03:58:12 PM »
2nd hole at Brae Burn - 308 from the back tees, 289 from the member tees. Green is severely two tiered back to front



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Travis Dewire

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Re: The World's Best Short Par 4s
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2011, 03:59:08 PM »
why do pictures not load? have the write code in the text box for them to display, have it opened with img an dclosed with the /img. Same thing that is put into the text box when you hit insert picture. Any help?
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