[John_McMillan]

Matt Ward -

The greens at the Kingsley club were built by Mike DeVries.  Mike Keiser is the developer of Bandon Dunes.

Tim Weiman -

I understood from you that the 15'th at Sand Ridge was the one green which Fazio did not built (that it was Dusty Murdoch's creation).  If the entire collection is not noteworthy, save for one non-Fazio green, how much of a "plumb" is this in Fazio's resume?

[Jeff Mingay]

Mike DeVries did indeed build a varied set of bold and interesting greens at The Kingsley Club. And his greens down at Pilgrim's Run near Grand Rapids, Mich. are equally good too. Perhaps even a bit better!

Pilgrim's Run is truly a "hidden gem." It's a fantastic course that provides loads of fun. The greens are great! And so are the bunkers.

The golfers of Grand Rapids and the surrounding area should consider themselves lucky that Pilgrim's Run doesn't receive its due. This way, they get it all to themselves. And the green fee remains reasonable.

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Jim Lewis,

I apologize for my making money comment w/o proper explanation.  You are right there is nothing shameful in making money.  It is a very worthy goal that is practed very well in this country, and thank goodness..that is one reason why we are the greatest country.  What I should have said was that my feeling is the course designed was compromised on the false pretense that the design had to be throttled back to accomodate large numbers of golfers in order to maximize return on investment. Despite what some say here, I think a course equal to Pine Valley could have been built there, and was not possibly because of the aforementioned false pretense.  I do not know this to be true, and I am probably off base.  However, something far greater could have been done with that land, and it could have made money.

On many projects, when I am with the developer and consultants I know I am in America, but when we go in for approvals it seems like we entered Russia.  Good projects make good money and that is spread around to good people.

[Doug Wright]

I can't state this with conviction because I've only played one of his courses, but that one course (Pinon Hills, Farmington NM) leads me to ask--what about Ken Dye? The greens at Pinon are very creative, tiered with many "greens within greens" that are either loads of fun or loads of frustration depending on the day. Matt Ward and others, kindly chime in--do the greens at Paa-Ko Ridge in NM, Hawktree in SD etc. supplement or detract from this view?  

[Jeff_McDowell]

Doug,

Hawktree is in ND, and was designed by Jim Engh. I have played the course twice, and don't remember much about the putting greens.

[Doug Wright]

Jeff,

Right you are on both accounts. Mea culpa, and strike that reference...

All The Best,

[Mark_Fine]

It's hard not to vote for Pete Dye but there are numerous architects that you could argue for.  Fazio is clearly one of them.  I've only played 30 or so of his designs, but of the ones I've seen, the far majority are very interesting and imaginative.  

I wish we all could agree on one thing on this site that right or wrong, Fazio builds golf courses to please his clients.  He runs his design business as a business first and foremost.  I have to laugh at you guys critizing his greens at Pine Hill.  Yes they are a relatively weak set for Fazio, but do you think he forgot how to build good ones even though right down the street at Galloway the greens are extremely creative (and in some cases down right nasty)?  The product the owners wanted at Galloway vs. Pine Hill was just different.  For the average public golfer, Pill Hill is already more than most can handle the way it is.  Put Pine Valley greens on that site and yes you would have a much better course, but you would also pust the five hour rounds they have now right up to six hours!

I gave an example a few months ago comparing Victoria National and Sand Ridge.  Sand Ridge is a forgiving member's course, VN is not.  The green complexes reflect this!  That is what the clients wanted!

I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I'm just stating facts!
Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

Ok Mark, then should we qualify our statements to read,

"Tom Fazio builds some of the best greens of any modern architect when the owner allows him" ?

Or, could it be that there is a vast difference between his firm's work that he handles vs that he passes to his associates?

Perhaps Tom Doak should have flattened the greens at Pacific Dunes as it's a public venue.  Pete Dye should have steamrollered Whistling Straits and Blackwolf Run for the same reason.  After all, let's show the paying public some pretty framing but let's get them through here quickly.  

Mark, are you saying that building boring golf courses, especially MASSIVELY HYPED (comparisons to its neighbor)boring golf courses, is just a business decision, so we should let it go?  After all, why should anyone know that it stinks prior to plunking down their measly $150?

After all, it's what the owner wanted.  

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Your comment - "Tom Fazio builds some of the best greens of any modern architect when the owner allows him!" could not be better stated.  I happen to believe that about him!  I didn't say I agree with what he does, I just said I believe he is capable of building a very good golf course with some great greens.  I unfortunately think "business" reasons often dictate how good his end product turns out to be!  Sometimes it's the owner, and sometimes it may be Fazio's level of interest and/or commitment to the project.  

Most people love Pine Hill (the evidence is in the number of rounds they said they supposedly are doing at the price they are charging).  Personally, I was not all that impressed, but then again, I am comparing the course to the best of Fazio's best.  If the course is hyped up and a golfer plays it and doesn't like it, he just won't go back right?  That doesn't appear to be a problem yet and if it becomes one, I'm sure they will change things.  I heard they already have made it easier because of "time to play" was too long.  

Why do you think Fazio didn't build greens like Pine Valley's at Pine Hill?  He did a great job duplicating them on Pine Valley's short course right!  He could have easily done the same next door if he wanted to or was allowed to.  That is my point!
Mark

[BillV]

Mark

Running Deer has more interesting greens than Pine Hill.  Surprized?  

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
Running Deer's greens are head and shoulders more interesting than Pine Hills.  Running Deer is also a private golf course.  
Mark

[Bradley Anderson]

I have not played 20 clubs of these architects but I would vote for Keith Foster, Fazio, and Doak.

The greens that Dye designed at Kohler have far too many bumps. Anything more than 35 feet away has the ball breaking to the left then the right. That's fine on one or two holes, but every hole ? It's hard enough to read how much the ball is going to break one way, but when a ball is going to break two or even three ways enroute to the hole it's too much.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Regarding your comment about Pacific Dunes, here is what Tom Doak said on a previous post about why he only made it 6600 yards long.  It gets at the point I am making about who the course is designed for -

"I've said elsewhere that I took the stance that Pacific Dunes was a resort first and foremost.  It's kind of remote to have a professional event, and if they ever wanted to have one, they have all 7300 yards of Bandon Dunes to play it on.  Most of the good players I've spoken to really like Pacific Dunes because it gives them a chance to score in calm conditions, and it really tests them when it gets windy.  I've built plenty of stern courses; Pacific Dunes was built to be fun, and it hasn't held it back too much in people's minds so far".

Regarding Pete Dye, he almost always sets out to build a "championship" caliber golf course and the owner knows this when they offer him the job!  Whistling Straits was designed to challenge the best as was Blackwolf Run.  That is what the owner wanted!
Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

As far as the popularity of Pine Hill, I can only point you to the following link with the comments of the playing public.

[Mike_Cirba]

oops...hit enter too soon..here we go;

http://www.golfcourse.com/search/cc_display.cfm?clubid=21549&courseid=37646

Now Mark, you can't tell me that the "owner" wasn't building the place hoping to have the greatest public course in the region, and certainly hoping to at the very least land a spot in Golf Digest's "Top 10 New Expensive Public" list.  

It was shut out, as you know.  So, I ask you, what's missing?

Was the site adequate?  Was the architect limited by budgetary constraints or environmental difficulties?  Was this meant to be an adequately interesting public course designed to get people in and out?  

Did Tom Fazio opt out on the "challenge" factor, preferring to design a "fun" course like Doak at Pacific Dunes?  Is Pine Hill fun?  

Comparing the greens at PH to it's neighbor is not even in the same dimension.  How about just settling for "interesting", or even "mildly interesting"?  

  

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Didn't Jersey Golfer vote Pine Hill best public course in NJ or something like that?  Someone must like the place.  Who knows.  I played it only once in early December and the place was packed.  I have no idea how many rounds they got there last year.  

You must know where I am coming from though on the greens and you have to admit, Fazio is capable of building some great ones.  Maybe he was overly conservative at PH because of the difficulty of the rest of the course, I don't know.  

Furthermore, you have to admit the owner plays a big role in the end product.  Sometimes even guys like Pete Dye have to hold back on what they would normally like to do.  Look at Dye's Disney course - Eagle Pines - I call it "Pete Dye on valium"!    If that was the only Pete Dye course you ever played or seen you'd wonder what all the fuss was about his "Dyeabolical" courses!  I'm willing to wager a bet that owner had a little influence there    Do you disagree?  

Mark

  

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

Yes, Pine Hill got selected as the "Best Public" course in NJ in Jersey Golfer Magazine.  Matt Ward and I have debated that grievous error in his otherwise superb magazine quite a bit.

However Mark, you and I know better, right?  

And I agree with you that the owner can have more modest or less noble goals that influence an architects work.  No question.

What I am asking is, do you think that one of the major goals at Pine Hill was to bring in Tom Fazio to build a great golf course?   From the very beginning of the project, the developers hyped the fact that not only did they have a site that was just as good and unique as Pine Valley, but they had also hired the best architect in the world.

From the front page of their website...

"Beyond the list of merely famous courses a handful stand out as legends. Defined by their beauty, location and layout they are sought out by golfers on pilgrimages from around the globe. Courses like Augusta National, Pebble Beach, Pinehurst and the Old Course at St. Andrews. Courses with timeless beauty and subtle designs that test a player to the limit of his ability, while filling his senses with the magnificence of his surroundings."
 
"A new course is set to take its rightful place among those legends, and while that may seem an idle boast for a club so young, one look at Pine Hill Golf Club will change your mind forever...."

Sounds like a pretty modest set of standards to me.  


    

[Tim_Weiman]

John McMillan:

Maybe I shouldn't go around quoting Dusty!

Anyway, I think there are five greens at Sand Ridge noteworthy for difficulty or the subtle variety, including #1, #8, #9 , #15 and #16.

#15 is the one I really believe is all world.  As I didn't see it designed with my own eyes, all I can say is Fazio is the architect of record and Dusty is the person claiming to have done the work.

As for Fazio, among the standard criticisms is lack of emphasis on strategy, a point I generally agree with.  However, as others on this thread have point out, his greens may be a much more positive, and far less frequently discussed, part of his work.  I wouldn't, however, cite the complete collection of greens at SR to make this point.

[Tom Doak]

I haven't built twenty courses yet, so what do I know?, but ...

I don't like many of the greens named above very much.  I've seen about thirty Tom Fazio courses -- not including Galloway, Sand Ridge, Flint Hills or Forest Creek which were singled out -- but of those I have I can't say I've seen many really interesting sets of greens.  Sometimes there's interesting putting contour which doesn't tie in well [Estancia, Belfair]; other times interesting green complexes with strange putts [Treetops].  I think I liked the greens he built 10-15 years ago better than the more recent ones I've seen.

Funny how few other guys even got a mention.  No one said Nicklaus, Weiskopf and Morrish, Mike Hurdzan, Art Hills, or any other architect highly represented on the top 100 modern courses list.

Actually, I think that very few modern architects build consistently interesting greens, which is the main reason I prefer classic-era courses.  Tillinghast, Travis and those guys knew how to contour a green.

[ian andrew (Guest)]

I've seen a lot of architects go from rolling greens, to flat, to rolling again. Which course would you have me judge this on?
Often an architect has to adjust due to the nature of the course. A resort may be a little less aggressive than the contours found on a private club. The last problem is when an architect blows you away with a great set of greens but you've never seen another course they've done.

The twenty courses is way too much, five is enough to get a good feel.

[Matt_Ward]

John McMillan:

Thanks in correcting my mistake on the designer of The Kingsley Club -- obviously a superb creation of Mike DeVries and one I believe should be played by any person who enjoys a classic style course that calls for total control of all the clubs. Great greens throughout the 18 holes -- I especially liked the 9th -- a gem of a short par-3 that will strike faster than a cobra if you flinch even just a bit.

BillV:

Please do play the Black before thinking I, or anyone else, is giving the course a free pass. The USGA / NY State should have made massive changes to about six of the putting surfaces given the length of the holes in question (see my earlier post) and what needs to be added to test the world's best.

Does the Black have solid greens with testing contours? You bet. I guarantee you that a few of the professional will be uttering a few choice words when they get to the 15th hole!
There are others too.

My support of the Black comes from having played the course a number of times and I can tell you you must hit the driver well -- continously. If you bunt the ball around the Black will eat your lunch -- your approaches will be coming from long range distances to elevated targets. If you bomb it with army golf -- left / right, left / right you will also be humbled by the hay that is being prepared for June. Clearly, the world's best (i.e. Tiger, Phil, Duval, etc.) can vanquish any course when they are on and I do agree with Mark Fine that -10 or thereabouts is clearly in play.

Give the Black the type of greens you find at other Tillie gems (i.e. Winged Foot, Somerset Hills, SFGC and you would easily have a course among the best 10-20 in America. I stand behind that statement. The rolling terrain was ideally used for a solid routing of holes, but yes, the greens on about six of the holes should have been enhanced. The course is still solid even with this element and in my mind just misses out the 50 best in America.

****

On the discussion of Pine Hill I think a few people tend to forget that yes, many of the greens are fairly rudimentary. However, do yourself a big favor and march back to the tips and see how "rudimentary" the actual design is.

Just make sure gentlemen you're htting the tee ball well -- in some cases you need length and accuracy. Take the 9th and 10th holes. I think they are two of the finest back-to-back public par-4's in the Garden State. If you have the slightest twitch in the arms when you stand on either of these tees you can say SEE YA to your chances.

I grant a number of holes at Pine Hill are not all at this level. The comments made by Kelly on the placement of bunkers is clear, and, I would add that a few of the downhill par-3's do get a bit old in their challenge. But, Mark Fine is quite correct. If you added PV contours to a site that Pine Hill has they would still be playing rounds of golf long after the six hour mark.

Jersey public golf is really far below the quality of its private counterpart. I can truly say you'd be lucky to have one, maybe two at most public courses ranked in the top 25 in the state. I think things are improving and we shall see this summer when the new ones either come on line or start their second full season.

I'm not advocating Pine Hill for sainthood, but tee-to-green it does provide plenty of challenge on a number of holes -- does it merit retention as #1 among Jersey courses. Well, we shall see this summer -- the competition, as many of you know, is extremely fierce.

[Tom Doak]

Matt, you really stuck a nerve there!  John McMillan and I played Kingsley together last summer with Mike D., and the ninth green did not treat us particularly kindly.  Unless you like putting off the green and down a hill, that is ...

Admittedly we missed the target to the wrong side, and should not have had an easy two-putt par for our poor judgment.  I'll let John take it from here!

[Don_Mahaffey]

I'm haven't played a lot of the courses mentioned in this thread, but I did just return from a day of 36 holes at Apache Stronghold. If there are better greens in the Southwest, I haven't seen them yet. The course was dry and fast, and because of the cold, the greens were a lot closer to brown than green, very fast and very smooth. Much better condition then a few months ago, all patched up and full, no thin or bare spots. That may not sound impressive, but you had to see them not so long ago. Some of my favorites, the 15th is just wild and fits so well with the dramatic surrounds. the pin was back right on 13 and impossible (for me) to get close to from the left. Love the 11th, 3rd, and of course everyone's favorite, the 5th. I'm trying to figure out why everytime I show up there the pin is on the front shelf. One of these days I'll par that hole. A great group of greens, that are all the better now that the chipping areas and surrounds are maintained well.

[John_McMillan]

Tom Doak -

The version of the story I like to remember is that we were playing a best-ball competition against the Renaissance Gen X-ers, and since Jim Urbina had stiffed his tee shot for the Boomers, the rest of our team was free to explore the other features of the hole.  The hole was cut front left, and anything long or left had to come down a 4 foot hill.  I remember being both long and left - but I also remember that my second chip (the one coming back up the hill) was pretty good.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom Doak,
Speaking of putting off greens, on one round at Sand Hills I was on the back portion of the green on #1 putting to a front pin position.  My first putt trickled past the hole down the slope.  My next shot was a wedge from 80 yards away!!  What do you think about that green?  

Mike,
Don't buy into all the hype!  Of course they are going to promote the heck out the of the place and the Fazio label!  They all do it.  Also remember, very few golfers will ever get to play many Fazio courses to compare them like we do.  Most (way over 99.99%) will surely never get to play or see Pine Valley.  Again the true test will be in the number of rounds and the price golfers will pay.  They'll change things if they determine they need to!
Mark

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