Bermuda vs bent in the South and Sub Air

[Bruce Wellmon]

I am not a grass guy. There is seemingly a strong trend in NC/SC currently to convert bent to bermuda. One course, of which I am a member, cited East Lake as an example. I was told Bull's Bay was changing this summer, but to what I do not know. A lot of courses suffered last summer with the servere heat and humidity and lost greens. It is 97 degrees today. Could someone explain, in short. the advantages of bermuda in the Carolinas.
And what, if any, difference would Sub Air would make?
Thanks,
            Bruce

[Bill_McBride]

The kind of heat you mention when clombined with high humidity (I.e. Down south!) will kill bent or at least cause disease problems. That's why you'll see fans to create air circulation, or sub air systems for the clubs that can afford them.

On the other hand, strains of Bermuda thrive in those conditions. Last week I was fortunate enough to play a round at Cherokee CC in Atlanta and another at Champions in Houston. Both courses have ultra dwarf Bermuda greens that were smooth, quick, firm and no problems. That's why I don't think you'll find many bent greens in the south.

[Tom_Doak]

Bruce:

Bermuda greens thrive in hot and humid weather.  Bent greens die, unless you spend a lot of money on them, and even then they might die in a bad year.

It really depends on your golf season which is more appropriate.  If few people play in summer, and your prime season is when bermuda might be dormant, then bentgrass makes sense.  If people play in the heat and humidity ... bermuda is the answer.

There has always been a preference for bentgrass because it sounds better and because people visiting from the north are familiar with it.  And, 20-30 years ago, bermuda greens couldn't be nearly as fast as bent greens.  With the newer varieties, that's no longer true.  And while bent greens will always be just as quick or quicker, they'll never be as firm as bermuda greens because the superintendent will always be more afraid of losing them.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, what greens are you specifying/recommending for your Florida project?  The Champion mini verde is what we played on at Cherokee in Atlanta.  There will be high dollar maintenance but nothing like the cost of trying to maintain bent.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Bill
Champion and Mini Verde are 2 different brands of ultra dwarf.
Champion's has two ultra dwarfs on its 2 courses, Champion on the Cypress course and Tif Eagle on Jack Rabbit.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill
Champion and Mini Verde are 2 different brands of ultra dwarf.
Champion's has two ultra dwarfs on its 2 courses, Champion on the Cypress course and Tif Eagle on Jack Rabbit.

We played Cypress, so Champion on both Cypress/Champions and Cherokee.

We have Tif Dwarf at Pensacola.  I like all the mini and ultra dwarfs.  Especially if you don't  overseed!

[mike_beene]

which variety is on Whispering Pines? The greens there putt very well,but the biggest difference as Tom alludes to is the firmness.A few hours north in Dallas it seems like Bermuda wouldn't work for really good winter greens,bit the bent is a little sticky for chipping on this time of year.Even the courses with sub air can't keep the greens that firm in summer

[Sam Morrow]

which variety is on Whispering Pines? The greens there putt very well,but the biggest difference as Tom alludes to is the firmness.A few hours north in Dallas it seems like Bermuda wouldn't work for really good winter greens,bit the bent is a little sticky for chipping on this time of year.Even the courses with sub air can't keep the greens that firm in summer

Dallas National was in phenomenal condition today but the greens were very soft.

[mike_beene]

it seems to me the only advantage to sub air is not having above ground fans.I was at one time under the impression that sub air would let bent play as well in the summer as the rest of the year.Doesn't seem to be the case.

[Tom_Doak]

Bill M:

We are planting Mini Verde on the greens for both courses at Streamsong.

It won't go dormant for long most winters, sometimes not at all, so we don't plan to overseed.

[Anthony_Nysse]

it seems to me the only advantage to sub air is not having above ground fans.I was at one time under the impression that sub air would let bent play as well in the summer as the rest of the year.Doesn't seem to be the case.

Mike, We had both fans and subairs at Colonial and both are totally different than the other. Sub air pulls moisture through the entire SOIL PROFILE 14-16" deep. This pulling of moisture helps when flushing the greens of salts and also after rains. The fans just keep the SURFACE cool and drier, thus pushing roots deeper. I, personally, wouldnt want one without the other, but I no longer on a course than manages bentgrass for a reason.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill M:

We are planting Mini Verde on the greens for both courses at Streamsong.

It won't go dormant for long most winters, sometimes not at all, so we don't plan to overseed.

Good news!  Transition is a bitch when you over seed.  Are these your first Bermuda greens?

[BCrosby]

Having lived through the tumult and the shouting of converting our greens at Cherokee and now, having enjoyed for several months our new Champion greens and new Tiff Grand surrounds (a recently developed UGA bermuda hybrid that, in my opinion, borders on the miraculous), I am convinced that within my lifetime virtually all greens south of the Mason Dixon line will be grassed with some variety of a bermuda ultra dwarf.

Given the putting conditions the new ultra dwarfs provide, there is no longer a good reason to carry on the fight to keep bents alive in the South.

Bob

[Tom_Doak]

Bill M:

We are planting Mini Verde on the greens for both courses at Streamsong.

It won't go dormant for long most winters, sometimes not at all, so we don't plan to overseed.

Good news!  Transition is a bitch when you over seed.  Are these your first Bermuda greens?

Bill:

No, our course at The Legends in Myrtle Beach was done with bermuda greens, at least to start with.  They would overseed them with bentgrass in the winter to make it look good for the northerners, but they still had the bermuda underneath to survive the summers.

Amazingly, though, that's the only course I've done with bermuda greens before Streamsong.  Apache Stronghold is high enough above sea level to keep bentgrass greens okay, and so is The Rawls Course in Lubbock.  And the Bay of Dreams is all paspalum, tee to green.  We have used Champion bermuda for greens renovations at Yeamans Hall and Mid Ocean, though, so I'm familiar with the ultra dwarfs.

When we were working on The Legends, I noticed that every year, a different course advertised they had "the best bentgrass greens on the Grand Strand."  It was different every year because the previous year's claimant either cooked their greens or made them too mushy, and had to pass on the title to a brand-new course which hadn't cooked their greens yet.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Bob,
That is the good news as golfers are finally recognizing that the newer Bermudas are the best possible choice for the south. Now, the next hurdle is to get golf industry professionals to realize that USGA spec greens are NOT the best way to grow ultradwarfs that can be practically maintained. Getting golfers to overcome the Bermuda stigma took time but I think we’re there; getting labs, architects, universities, and “educated” supers to use the best method instead of the promoted method will take longer I’m afraid.

[BCrosby]

Bob,
... Now, the next hurdle is to get golf industry professionals to realize that USGA spec greens are NOT the best way to grow ultradwarfs that can be practically maintained...

Don - Please elaborate. USGA greens are problematical for ultra dwarfs?

Bob

[JMEvensky]

Having lived through the tumult and the shouting of converting our greens at Cherokee and now, having enjoyed for several months our new Champion greens and new Tiff Grand surrounds (a recently developed UGA bermuda hybrid that, in my opinion, borders on the miraculous), I am convinced that within my lifetime virtually all greens south of the Mason Dixon line will be grassed with some variety of a bermuda ultra dwarf.

Given the putting conditions the new ultra dwarfs provide, there is no longer a good reason to carry on the fight to keep bents alive in the South.

Bob

Bob,if you don't mind answering,what grass is on your fairways and what were your approaches/surrounds  before you switched to Grand?

In Memphis,those with zoysia fairways and Champion greens are using Tif Sport for the surrounds.

[Lou_Duran]

The "Search" feature would likely show other threads on the same subject should this one fall short of supplying the needed information.

Mike Beene,

I'm 99% sure that Whispering Pines converted to Champion sometime between 2002 and 2005.  I don't recall what the greens were before, perhaps tifdwarf or tifeagle.  In the fall of '05, a drought year, the Champion greens were the best bermuda greens I have ever putted on.  They were ultra firm, fast (13'+), and appeared near grainless.

Though Bob Crosby is probably right regarding a mass exodus in favor of the ultra dwarfs in the south, I don't share the enthusiasm for their performance.  About the only superintendent I've talked to who believes that the ultra dwarfs provide a huge maintenance cost advantage over bent is Don Mahaffey.  The typical ultra dwarf greens I play come nowhere close to performing like bent, and those which are maintained to approach that level, require considerable effort and expense according to their superintendents.  They may have less grain than the prior bermuda hybrids, but it is there nonetheless.

Another consideration is the tolerance of extremely cold weather.  We have a number of courses in north Texas that have had to re-sod large parts of their greens which were exposed to the weather (cold air getting under the tarps).  Some have very sparse, bumpy greens as the bermuda has been slow to come back.

Finally, greens designed with bent in mind may not play accordingly after conversion.   In one example that comes to mind, the converted greens are considrably firmer and the pitches and chips from various angles are much more difficult- 3 to 4 strokes according to some frequent players.

[BCrosby]

JME -

Our fw's are 419 and surrounds were Tif Sport. Tiff Grand is a real improvement over Tiff Sport, imo. T/G is shade tolerant (we are using it on sparse areas in the rough that are shaded all day and it is thriving). It's more wear resistant, holding up well against foot traffic. That is why it also is great for tees. Finally, it can be cut down to almost putting heights, which makes for wonderful run-off areas around our greens.

Lou -

Net, net, ultra dwarfs will not save in maintenance. It's not a perfect turf. But you put them in nonetheless because most people in the South play golf in the summer and during the summer in the South they will always out-perform a bent green. I would add that they are also terrific when dormant in the winter, but that's another story.

Bob

[JMEvensky]

JME -

Our fw's are 419 and surrounds were Tif Sport. Tiff Grand is a real improvement over Tiff Sport, imo. T/G is shade tolerant (we are using it on sparse areas in the rough that are shaded all day and it is thriving). It's more wear resistant, holding up well against foot traffic. That is why it also is great for tees. Finally, it can be cut down to almost putting heights, which makes for wonderful run-off areas around our greens.

Lou -

Net, net, ultra dwarfs will not save in maintenance. It's not a perfect turf. But you put them in nonetheless because most people in the South play golf in the summer and during the summer in the South they will always out-perform a bent green. I would add that they are also terrific when dormant in the winter, but that's another story.

Bob

Thanks.That's exactly what I was looking for.

[Bill_McBride]

JME -

Our fw's are 419 and surrounds were Tif Sport. Tiff Grand is a real improvement over Tiff Sport, imo. T/G is shade tolerant (we are using it on sparse areas in the rough that are shaded all day and it is thriving). It's more wear resistant, holding up well against foot traffic. That is why it also is great for tees. Finally, it can be cut down to almost putting heights, which makes for wonderful run-off areas around our greens.
 

I played Bob's course last week, and really liked the grasses he's mentioned.  The maintenance meld was excellent!

[JMEvensky]

JME -

Our fw's are 419 and surrounds were Tif Sport. Tiff Grand is a real improvement over Tiff Sport, imo. T/G is shade tolerant (we are using it on sparse areas in the rough that are shaded all day and it is thriving). It's more wear resistant, holding up well against foot traffic. That is why it also is great for tees. Finally, it can be cut down to almost putting heights, which makes for wonderful run-off areas around our greens.
 

I played Bob's course last week, and really liked the grasses he's mentioned.  The maintenance meld was excellent!

I'm a bermuda guy from way back so I'd probably love it.

With our usual lack of foresight,we re-grassed with Champion and did nothing with our surrounds/approaches.If there's a worse grass for approaches than zoysia,I hope I never have to play it.

I'm hoping that since Grand is sodded rather than sprigged,we might be able to re-grass with less down time.

[Don_Mahaffey]

While I'm just a lowly superintendent who has maintained bermuda and bent in the south, I will have to disagree with My Crosby and Mr. Duran about the cost of maintaining bent vs. bermuda. I know Lou and know him to be a student of the game and its courses, but I do not know Bob, other than here on GCA.
My disagreement is based on one caveat, and that is, I am the one to specify the rootzone and maintenance practices. I'd let them specify the results they want. Just starting with the rootzone, on a new green here in south Texas. Sand for a USGA spec rootzone is going to cost about $45/ton. The sand I need for my ultradwarf green, a narrowly graded, finer sand, runs me about $20/ton. The $45 sand is what I'd specify if Lou and Bob want a high quality bent green, but if they want a high quality ultradwarf green, the fine sand is better and the fact it costs half is an added benefit. Now, if Bob and Lou decided they needed a second opinion and hired a big shot consultant, then we'd have to put in the 45 sand and we'd be on our way to a net/net trade off on maintenance costs. That’s just the beginning of my argument, but I believe I’m off to a good start.
If any one wants a more in-depth answer as to why I KNOW bermuda can cost less to maintain then bent, PM me and within a few days I'll get back to you with the long story. The short story is, if you treat it like bent, maintain it like bent, and specify everything like it was bent, it'll cost as much as bent. However, if you understand the differences and know how to use them to your advantage, it can cost much less to maintain bermuda then bent. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

[Steve Okula]

Don,

Could you tell us exactly why the fine sand root zone works better for bermuda?

[Roger Wolfe]

We recently had a USGA site visit (Carolina Golf Club in Charlotte, NC) and, of course, Mr. O'Brien was championing bermudagrass greens.  I have played on some wonderful bermuda and I guarantee you bermuda is better than bent in July and August but, until I see something different, it is terrible in the transition zone from November to May.

HOWEVER

I like to play golf March - June and October - December.  I really don't care about firmness in July and August because I am not going to play as much when its a sauna outside.  We installed fans last year in the middle of the worst summer in Carolinas history.  Our greens that had suffered the most recovered in a matter of weeks.

Catastrophic bermuda loss in an icy, cold winter scares me more than summer heat...