When Greens Make Better Hazards than Bunkers

[David Harshbarger]

On the Dismal River 2.0 thread was this statement by Mike Nuzzo, which I absolutely love the thinking behind....

I know its early on and all...

..but I'm thinking, just leave that sucker as is, build a neat little green to the side of it with a wicked small bunker just to the left of the green for those who chose to be overly safe on the bailout, and call it good.

Kalen
One could have the green do the same thing as the bunker you mentioned... which is a good recommendation for most greens and bunkers.

My question, when does using Green make a more effective hazard than using bunker?  Why?  And are there examples?

My theory, if you took a "chipping area" and made it Green, you take away the aerial game, forcing players to play putter.  Even if that segment of Green isn't pinnable, or even meant to be, it isn't gougable, either, nor would any lofted club generally be used.  If the route back to the pin is severe, you've got a hazard. 

Dave

[Kalen Braley]

I've only seen one architect, (of the courses I've played) have the chuptzah to do this sort of thing on a regular basis and that is Jim Engh.

There has certainly been times I would much rather be in the bunker than on the wrong section of some of his greens.  (The most severe example coming on the 9th green at Redlands Mesa where I was so out of position, I had to scratch my head and work out a way to avoid a 4 putt)

Overall though, in the vast majority of cases, I think the pysche of the average golfer who is a 15 to 18...(which is where I currently am), tends to be that they would rather be on the green and out of position as opposed to being in a greenside bunker, or especially something as devious looking as that pit at DR 2.0^TM.

I guess what i'm saying is, I'd like to see examples of greens where the average player is faced with a legitimate 4 putt proposition....because remember the vast majority of the time a hack like me goes into a green side bunker, it almost always means it'll take at least 3 more shots to get it in the hole. (1 shot out and 2 putts). So fear of a 3 putt from being out of position at a difficult part of the green isn't a big deterrent because that's essentially just the same thing as being in a greenside bunker for the high capper.

[Bruce Wellmon]

 I would say #1 at Yeaman's and the #2 at Old Town.
On these you could be "2" levels from the pin.
I hope I understood the question correctly.

                                           

[David Harshbarger]

Kalen,

I'm a high handicapper too, so I see your point, though I easily fall victim to the I'm on, 2 putts, mentality.

For the low capper, can Green be a 3-shot proposition, cause bunkers seem to be 2-shotters?

Dave

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

I'm a high handicapper too, so I see your point, though I easily fall victim to the I'm on, 2 putts, mentality.

For the low capper, can Green be a 3-shot proposition, cause bunkers seem to be 2-shotters?

Dave

David,

True, I also think that way most times.  But even if someone was standing next to me saying, if you hit it to the wrong part of the green, you risk a 3 putt...that still wouldn't be a deterrent over hitting it into a bunker, because maybe only 10% of the time do I get it up and down out of a green side bunker. 

Furthermore, being in a bunker for a highcapper can mean skulling it over the green and bringing into play even bigger numbers.

So once again, outside of a few crazy Jim Engh greens I've played, I've rarely been deterred by a green countour as much as I am by a green side bunker.

[David Harshbarger]

I would say #1 at Yeaman's and the #2 at Old Town.
On these you could be "2" levels from the pin.
I hope I understood the question correctly.

                                           

Bruce, I'm not familiar with those holes so I'll leave commentary to others.  On the question, another way to ask it is could you replace a greenside bunker with Green and have as or more effective hazard for the wayward shot?

[Bruce Wellmon]

I don't have personal photos of them, but
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/yeamans-hall-club-sc-usa/

[Joe_Tucholski]

I'm not exactly sure I know what Mike Nuzzo means when he says a green do the same thing as the bunker.  If he means the contours and shapes of a green can make attaining par significantly more difficult, I agree.  I also agree with what Kalen said that when standing in the fairway I'm going to make a mental note to stay away from a bunker but I can't really say I have the same thoughts to stay away from certain areas of the greens due to contours unless I’ve played the course over 20 times and have had multiple three putts from a particular area (maybe that's why I'm far from a great golfer).

All that being said I think contours in the green like false fronts, mounds, depressions, swales and tiers are great features to utilize occasionally.  I don't think I would appreciate a course that had a swale or mound in most greens while most courses have bunkers on most holes.  After a hole if I make a bogey because I was in a bunker I'll take it with some acceptance but if I three putt I'm kicking myself.

Again not sure I know exactly what is meant by a green design that does the same thing as a bunker but there are only a few greens that I really think to myself avoid this part of the green at all costs.  From yesterdays round I can say #7 at Rustic Canyon I definitely think don't go long left when the pin is front right (seems to be there 90% of the time I play the course) but don't think this is what was meant by the comment or the question.

[Stan Dodd]

Foxy at Dornoch fits twh bill.

[David Harshbarger]

Joe,

I think that you captured the issue perfectly.  We are conditioned to see hitting the green as mission accomplished on the approach phase of the hole, and expect two more strokes, at most, from there, where 3 strokes from a greenside bunker is acceptable.  In that sense Green as hazard would have apply as much a mental penalty as a scoring penalty.

Dave

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thank you David

Bailing out on the Dismal 2.0 par 3 to the left, the player would be "outside" the greenside bunker Kalen suggested.
Kalen's bunker would serve the purpose, for the bailer outer, to make it harder to control the distance by having to fly it over the bunker.
If the green tilted to the right it would serve the same purpose, making it harder to control distance from the left.
It turned out the green slopes in that direction already - very nice.

My suggestion was not to make a spot on the green more difficult than being in the bunker, but make it harder if you want to puss, I mean bail, out.

Our greens at wolf point slope in a lot more directions than just back to front.
We have very few greenside bunkers.

There are more ways to add strategy than just adding a bunker - this ties back into the routing process.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

Thanks for the clarification.  And to be clear, I wasn't trying to say that I'm against penal greens...I actually love them.  Was only trying to give the perspective of a high capper would much rather be faced with the prospect of a tough two putt over being in a greenside bunker any day of the week.

P.S.  Those greens at Wolf Point do indeed look delish...especially knowing that the pictures I've seen make those contours look flatter than they really are.

[Tom Kelly]

If you guys like crazy greens that punish you if your in the wrong part of them (if you can hit them that is) you should make a b-line for the Castle Course at St Andrews if you haven't already, they are truly mental!

Some love them some hate them....the score card definitely hates them, I doubt many would enjoy playing a medal comp around there but they can be very fun at times if in the right mood.

Personally I like greens that if you hit in the wrong areas with the wrong type of shot they can kick your ball away into swales and mounds making for a much more interesting recovery shot than a bunker. Some of the greens at Royal St Georges last week have great examples of edges of green which do this. Some are a tad extreme for my liking, but very interesting and they definitely make sure you take note of where not to miss the green when the pins are tight to them!

[BCrosby]

One of the animating ideas for ANGC.