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Chip Gaskins

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I love combining baseball games with golf trips.  I love the architecture of some of these old and new stadia.  

I always try and combine a baseball game with some of my golf trips.

My ranking for some of the baseball stadia I have seen would be.
Best
1) Fenway
2) Wrigley
3) AT&T
4) PNC Park
5) Camden Yard
6) Coors Field
7) Dodger


Worst

1) Oakland Athletics
2) Shea (NLE)
3) Superdome (Toronto)
4) National Stadium (DC, sort of like Congressional...functional but void of character....what could have been!)
5) Turner Field (ZZZZzzz)
6) Veterans (NLE)
7) Candlestick (NLE)
8) Yankee (NLE)
9) RFK (NLE)



Here is the article/ranking, that I can't really disagree with from the New York Times...

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/29/ranking-baseballs-best-ballparks/

Ranking Baseball’s Best Ballparks
By NATE SILVER
I’m working on an article about the New York Mets — but that subject is perhaps too depressing for a beautiful Memorial Day weekend.

The article, in any event, will focus on the Mets’ attendance and whether there are any signals that the club’s off-the-field problems have begun to hurt its take at the box office. (Spoiler: the answer is probably “yes.”) Part of this involves looking at each team’s attendance as a function of a number of factors, including their performance on the field, the size of their market, and the quality of their ballpark.

How do we evaluate each team’s ballpark? Every now and then, some writer is lucky enough to earn a book advance or a freelance contract for visiting every major league stadium and rating them (see 1988’s Dodger Dogs and Fenway Franks or ESPN’s Stadium Tour for some well-executed examples). But most of these efforts are out of date — and of course, they reflect just one fan’s opinion.

There are also sometimes fan surveys, but they tend to be unnecessarily complicated, asking fans to rate the ballparks along a number of distinct dimensions rather than evaluating their experience holistically.
So here’s a much simpler approach. I looked up the average rating — from one to five stars — for each of the 30 major league stadiums at the popular review site Yelp.com. It’s no more complicated than that. All of the ballparks have at least dozens if not hundreds of ratings from individual fans.

The winner by a country mile is Pittsburgh’s PNC Park. More than 80 percent of reviewers gave it the top, 5-star rating, and its average score was 4.77 points. It is followed by Boston’s Fenway Park (4.59 stars), San Francisco’s AT&T Park (4.57), Minneapolis’ Target Field (4.53), and Baltimore’s Camden Yards (4.47).



Four ballparks, meanwhile, stand out for being at least a standard deviation below the curve. They are Miami’s Sun Life Stadium (3.35 stars), the Tampa Bay Rays’ Tropicana Field (3.20) in St. Petersburg, Oakland’s unfortunately-named Overstock.com Coliseum (3.13) and Toronto’s Rogers Centre (3.02) — which was completed in 1989 as the state-of-the-art SkyDome but which now seems dreary and passé.

At least two of these four stadiums are soon to be replaced. But not every new ballpark is equally well regarded. Washington’s Nationals Park, for example, receives tepid reviews (3.63 stars), although perhaps that is because fans find it hard to look past the ugly play of the team on the field.

One potential conclusion is that it’s not worth building a retractable roof (which often requires significant additional taxpayer expense.) The five stadiums which have one receive an average rating of 3.86, versus an average of 4.10 for those that remain open to the elements.

The two ballparks in New York receive fairly average ratings, with the Mets’ Citi Field (4.05 stars) slightly preferred to the new Yankee Stadium (3.92). For the Mets, this represents a major upgrade over Shea Stadium (3.45 stars). But the old Yankee Stadium (3.96 stars) received almost the same grade as the new one.

In the chart you see above, I’ve also listed the standard deviation for each ballpark — the higher this number is, the more disagreement there is among fans as to the overall experience. While Dodger Stadium, for example, receives plenty of high grades, other fans abhor it for the traffic problems it creates (not that this is so easy to avoid in Los Angeles) or for its increasingly rowdy fans (in what reflects a sea change from the park’s staid atmosphere during previous generations).

Chicago’s Wrigley Field ranks 10th overall, but elicits its share of skeptical reactions. Some of its issues — like narrow seats and an inadequate number of bathrooms — are going to be hard to resolve without gutting the place. But others, like improving the park’s below-average food and beer options, would seem easier to solve; perhaps the Cubs should consider trading Alfonso Soriano for chef Rick Bayless.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 12:13:47 PM by Chip Gaskins »

Richard Choi

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Stadiums and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 12:54:12 AM »
Based on the golf course ratings on Yelp, I wouldn't put too much expectations on the architectural appreciation of typical Yelp reviewers...

Sean_A

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Stadiums and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 04:58:21 AM »
I have only been to two ball games in the past 20 years.  Camden Yard was an eye opener for me all those years ago.  I liked the location and that fact that it was part of a regeneration project.  A few years back I went to Comerica Park (terrible name) and was very impressed.  It was a far cry from Tiger Stadium - which despite the history of the place was not a good park.  Anyway, it felt like we were on a picnic.  Good location - I like that it is in the Grand Circus Park area and next door to Ford Field.  Superb seats behind homeplate with a tremendous view of the city in the centre field.  A big table separating two seats which were very ample.  Waitress service.  A restricted bar with a clean loo.  At the time I hadn't realized this was for Tiger Den tickets (which we had).  I also liked the dirt path from the mound to home plate (I know - a goofy detail, but I liked it).  To top it off, there was a cigar bar in the park.  What more could one want in a ball park?  Still, I prefer Wrigley - heavy sigh.


Its also pretty cool that Detroit GC is only a short drive away straight up Woodward. 

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

BCrosby

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Stadiums and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2011, 09:23:28 AM »
A postscript I never got around to writing for my Crane piece was a discussion of whether a sporting venue had a duty to be a neutral as possible. It's an issue that Crane's ideas raise. That is, does a sporting venue have an obligation not to favor one style of play over another? To use modern examples, does it make sense to criticize a Nicklaus course for favoring people who hit a fade or ANGC for favoring people who hit a draw?

Baseball stadia (note correct plural usage) raise the same issue. The odd outfield dimensions of Fenway favor right handed hitters and disfavor left handed pitchers. The old Yankee Stadium favored other sorts of players. Ditto for most older parks with asymetrical outfield fences. Many older parks were anything but neutral playing venues.

Are such asymmetries in golf courses and baseball stadia a glitch or a feature?

Bob  

Richard Choi

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Stadiums and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2011, 11:34:08 AM »
Bob, just like golf, the quirky dimensions of the early baseball stadiums are results of the "lay of the land".

The baseball stadiums are usually built facing North or Northeast (homeplate to outfield) to minimize the glare for the batters. Combine this with the fact that the early baseball stadiums had to fit around the existing city block, the outfield walls were just a by-product of compromises that the architects had to make with existing available land.

The modern stadiums usually don't have those constraints because they are built in the suburbs or they have much more flexibility in land acquisition. So either they were built with symmetrical dimensions (Oakland) or some random dimensions to evoke the classic baseball stadium architecture (New Yankee Stadium).

SL_Solow

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Stadiums and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2011, 11:41:28 AM »
Mr. Crosby,  If one is to analyze the impact of dimensions on the performance of ballplayers, one must look beyond the obvious.  For example the Green Monster in Fenway is deemed to favor right handed hitters.  There was the old argument asking what impact on statistics a trade of Dimaggio (Joe) for Williams would have ocurred given the nature of the home fields.  However consider that since 1941 10 Red Sox have won at least one batting title with 5 of them having multiple titles.  They were Ted Williams, Billy Goodman. Pete Runnels. Carl Yaztremski, Wade Boggs, Fred Lynn, Carney Lansford, Nomar Garciaparra and Manny Ramirez.  Seven of the 10 batted left handed and all the multiple winners were lefty.  Williams is a special case.  But all of the other lefties including Yaz  and Lynn but to a much greater degree, Goodman, Boggs, and Runnels, made great use of the Monster by taking outside pitches to left field and turning relatively routine opposite field flies into singles and doubles.  For power hitting righties who hit fly ball homers, the monster is a big help but otherwise it may be of greater benefit to lefties who can hit to all fields.

BCrosby

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Stadiums and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2011, 11:56:54 AM »
Richard -

Yes, stadia were shoe-horned into city locations. Outfields were shaped to fit existing street grids. That's the historical reason why Fenway, Wrigley, Yankee Stadium, Forbes Field, Crossley, Sportsman's Park and lots of other old parks were buiilt asymmetrically.

The more interesting question, however, is whether that is a good or bad thing. A Crane type argument would be that such stadia "unfairly" favor a certain type of player. Mutatis mutandi, the same argument might be made about certain golf courses. ANGC, for example, favors players who play the ball right to left. Is that a concern that should have a bearing on how we feel about the quality of the course?

My guess is that people like Crane, if asked, would have thought such asymmetries were unfair and made 'true' tests of sporting skills difficult. That is, what we find most charming about those older venues is what makes them unfair places to conduct baseball (or golfing) competitions, or so the argument would go.

Bob    

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Stadiums and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2011, 12:37:36 PM »
Bob, just like golf, the quirky dimensions of the early baseball stadiums are results of the "lay of the land".

The baseball stadiums are usually built facing North or Northeast (homeplate to outfield) to minimize the glare for the batters. Combine this with the fact that the early baseball stadiums had to fit around the existing city block, the outfield walls were just a by-product of compromises that the architects had to make with existing available land.

The modern stadiums usually don't have those constraints because they are built in the suburbs or they have much more flexibility in land acquisition. So either they were built with symmetrical dimensions (Oakland) or some random dimensions to evoke the classic baseball stadium architecture (New Yankee Stadium).

There's actually a decent parallel here with golf architecture. The huge outfield of the Polo Grounds or the "friendly confines" of Wrigley, the Green monster and bizarre dimensions of Fenway, or even the way the new Target Field is shoehorned into downtown ... all of these parks are beloved because they are the way they are out of necessity. There's nothing contrived about balls splashing down in McCovey Cove. These parks are like the great, quirky golf courses--they turned constraints to their advantage.

On the other hand you've got a ballpark like Houston's Minute Maid Field with a hill and flag pole in play in center field. They built it as a throwback to Crosley Field (the hill) and old Tiger and Yankee Stadium (flagpole), but the hill in Crosley was natural. The hill in Houston is just utterly ridiclous. It feels like a golf course where someone builds a hotel to drive over and a road next to a green just because they want to create the effect. It feels fake.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Way OT: Baseball Ballparks and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2011, 12:51:57 PM »
As Sean's photo shows, healthy and closely cropped turf sure goes a long way in establishing the feel and charm of a place.  And, as the Sky Dome demonstrates, not being a slave to the design fads and fashion of the day (especially if those days were in the 1980s) also helps a whole lot.

Peter

Kalen Braley

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Ballparks and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2011, 12:56:38 PM »
At least my beloved A's didn't have the worst stadium.  :'(

But I fully concur, they do play in an abysmal park.  The seats are far away from the action, even the second deck feels like a nosebleed, and the new seating for football, aka Mt. Davis, ruined it even further.

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Ballparks and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2011, 12:57:44 PM »
As Sean's photo shows, healthy and closely cropped turf sure goes a long way in establishing the feel and charm of a place.  And, as the Sky Dome demonstrates, not being a slave to the design fads and fashion of the day (especially if those days were in the 1980s) also helps a whole lot.

Peter

Not looking like an airplane hangar also helps establish charm. Sorry, Chase Field.

David Harshbarger

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Stadiums and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2011, 12:58:20 PM »
A postscript I never got around to writing for my Crane piece was a discussion of whether a sporting venue had a duty to be a neutral as possible. It's an issue that Crane's ideas raise. That is, does a sporting venue have an obligation not to favor one style of play over another? To use modern examples, does it make sense to criticize a Nicklaus course for favoring people who hit a fade or ANGC for favoring people who hit a draw?

Baseball stadia (note correct plural usage) raise the same issue. The odd outfield dimensions of Fenway favor right handed hitters and disfavor left handed pitchers. The old Yankee Stadium favored other sorts of players. Ditto for most older parks with asymetrical outfield fences. Many older parks were anything but neutral playing venues.

Are such asymmetries in golf courses and baseball stadia a glitch or a feature?

Bob  

I think if you talk to anybody in grounds maintenance at a ballpark they'll tell you that setting up a field that favors the style of ball of their players is a top concern.  That could mean extra lime on the baselines to keep a bunting lead off hitters bunts in play, or a longer grass cut to keep more grounders in the infield.  Weren't the Twins even accused of toggling the blowers in the HVAC at the Metrodome between ups?
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Kalen Braley

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Ballparks and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2011, 01:01:34 PM »
I've heard of teams keeping the infield dirt moist and soggy when "fast" teams came into town.

Tom Yost

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Stadiums and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2011, 01:06:55 PM »

There's actually a decent parallel here with golf architecture.

I like to view that parallel as well.  Note that during a period of time (70's-80's), a lot of horrible ballparks were built for multipurpose use.  They took on a very similar and vanilla style.  I think Baltimore and then Cleveland broke the trend and built single purpose baseball parks that offered a throwback to earlier styles, incorporating elements of the site.

Hopefully the trend continues with golf architecture.



Sean_A

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Ballparks and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2011, 01:28:37 PM »
For those with enquiring minds about the the Italian inspired (A Kahn) building past dead centre field, that is the Detroit Athletic Club, one of the true powerhouses of the city.  I have only stepped foot in the building once and it reminded me of Detroit itself, a bit run down.  I am told there has been a seriously expensive reno done to in the 90s and 00s.  The video is a bit corny,  but still reveals some cool tidbits.   

http://www.thedac.com/public/news/mcm.aspx

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Ballparks and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2011, 03:30:00 PM »
Many years ago, before I had children, with ANY trip, I would head to the nearest minor league park. It was right after the strike so the big's didn't thrill me. I went anywhere from the St Paul Saints of the Northern league to Jacksonville in the Southern league.
And many in between.
Greenville SC has a great minor league park currently. With a green monster replica.

BCrosby

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Ballparks and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2011, 05:22:43 PM »
Bruce -

My claim to baseball park visitation fame is that I went to a game at Jarry Parc during the last season the Expos played there. Drove up from Boston for the evening with friends. We - along with the other 63 people in attendance - watched the once great but still red-headed Rusty Staub strike out three times.

Bob   

Sean_A

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Ballparks and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2011, 05:55:28 PM »
Rusty Staub!  I recall the Tigers picking him up for the '76 season (when the Bird was the word and he should have won the Cy Young) and giving away Mickey Lolich.  This was a great trade for the Tigers as they got some fine years out of Rusty.  They mangaed to dump him back on Montreal when things started to go south with his RBI production.  I still can't understand why Montreal wanted Lolich.  He was at least a  few seasons past his prime.

Thanks for the memories Bob.

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 06:01:28 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Ballparks and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2011, 09:26:05 PM »
Want fun - go play Schuylkill with Mark and catch a Reading Phillies game afterward!

Jim Johnson

Re: Way OT: Baseball Ballparks and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2011, 12:02:01 AM »
I've heard of teams keeping the infield dirt moist and soggy when "fast" teams came into town.

The Padres ground crew caught in action...



Matthew Petersen

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Ballparks and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2011, 01:02:07 PM »
Jim,

I was surprised to see Petco so low on that list. I absolutely loved that ballpark. Great integration of existing buildings, great views, and oh yeah you're in San Diego. It also feels like a much smaller place than it is. You can walk around that park and feel like it's a spring training digs, but the multiple decks in the infield mean that they can pack in bodies if need be. Great stadium.

JLahrman

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Ballparks and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2011, 02:51:00 PM »
Jim,

I was surprised to see Petco so low on that list. I absolutely loved that ballpark. Great integration of existing buildings, great views, and oh yeah you're in San Diego. It also feels like a much smaller place than it is. You can walk around that park and feel like it's a spring training digs, but the multiple decks in the infield mean that they can pack in bodies if need be. Great stadium.

Matthew, how would you compare that to some of the other newer parks?  I like the way that the parks are being built now, but I think your above statement could apply to quite a few of them architecturally.  I grew up in Cincinnati, now live in the Bay Area, and the Reds' and Giants' stadiums architecturally feel fairly similar.  And also fairly similar to what I see in your Petco Park picture.  These layout are far superior to the old multipurpose stadiums (Riverfront, Three Rivers, Busch, etc.) of course, but I'm wondering how different they are from one another.

For what it's worth, a friend of mine used to work for ESPN and was in charge of the promotional packages where people would win tickets to games.  Then she went and hosted the winners at the games.  So she saw pretty much every stadium.  She said that the Pirates' stadium was easily the best stadium in the league.  Never been there myself, and it's a shame that they've put such a lousy team in there.

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: Way OT: Baseball Ballparks and Architecture (and golf trips)
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2011, 07:22:18 PM »
Bruce -

My claim to baseball park visitation fame is that I went to a game at Jarry Parc during the last season the Expos played there. Drove up from Boston for the evening with friends. We - along with the other 63 people in attendance - watched the once great but still red-headed Rusty Staub strike out three times.

Bob   

My favorite dog was named "Cubbie" so you know where my heart lies. But Les Expos? Nice. I once caught a game at the old empty Cleveland Stadium on a weeknight. More than 64 people, but empty.
I grew up in Charlotte, NC. Then Charlotte was the AA home of the Baltimore O's. When Baltimore was good. Eddie Murray, Mike Boddiker, Storm Davis, Cal Ripken and his brother all came through Charlotte. Quarter beer nights on Thursdays. That long ago. But my all time favorite player was named Drungo Larue Hazewood. Great hitter, of a fastball. Not a great hitter of a curve ball.  Thus, he had 7 all time at bats in the bigs. No hits. I never got his autograph. "Cubbie" was a registered dog. Her AKC registered name was "Cubbie Larue Hazewood." Supposedly he lives in Sacremento. So if there's a GCA guy in Sacramento and you ever meet a guy named Hazewood.........

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