The "Punchbowl" as a template.

[PCCraig]

New - 6 at Shepherds Crook (Foster)

Sven:

Good call on #6 at Shepherds Crook. It's a subtle one but cool to see such a green on a modern public facility.

Phil:

The punchbowl 8th is the best hole at Blue Mound IMO, followed by the Redan on the back nine. Two very good template holes.

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STLCC also has a really neat punchbowl green.

[Tim Gerrish]

An interesting old punchbowl #8 at Greenwich CC.  Blind as a bat and long iron to reach with death right and bunkers left.

Can anything compare to Fisher's Island?

[George Freeman]

I had always thought of a PB as a green with sloped surrounds that you can play off and thereby feed your ball onto the putting surface. The slopes effectively widen the target for the approach shot. They are notably forgiving of slight misses.

Many of the pictures above are merely greens with mounds around them. Those mounds do not appear to function as slopes would on a true PB.

Bob

I also agree with your definition, Bob.  A relatively flat green surrounded by rough covered mounds doesn't really create the interest that a punchbowl (as you defined it) does.  I also think that certain portions of greens acting as a punchbowl, versus the entire green being one big bowl, also work well and add lots of interest to approaches.

The 5th at the Kingsley Club is a true punchbowl, with all areas off the green feeding onto the green.  The green has 3-4 distinct areas which really add a challenge, somewhat offsetting the easy-ness of the punchbowl effect.  It is also pretty unique in that it is a par 3.  

The hole directly preceding the 5th also has a lot of punchbowl characteristics.  The 4th almost has two bowls, one large one in the front of the green with a smaller back bowl, separated by a ridge.  Both are REALLY fun greens.

The 12th at Chicago Golf is a fantastic green with all the little sections, however once you get off the green, your chances of getting the ball to bound back to the green are somewhat limited due to the rough.  Still an amazing hole and green.

[Mark McKeever]

18 at Schuylkill is a great punchbowl.  I am not sure how to get the picture posting to work unfortunately. 

Mark

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Re: 18 @ Schuylkill

Mark,

Here it is courtesy of the Bausch Collection at www.myphillygolf.com

[Kalen Braley]

Jim Engh certainly isn't shy to build a punch bowl or two...    






A neat punch bowl at RCCC

[Tim Martin]

Although I don`t have a picture 15 at The Orchards in Western Mass is a great example by Ross. Another example which would be a Punchbowl on steroids would be 4("The Anthill") at Shenecossett which is also Ross.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I had always thought of a PB as a green with sloped surrounds that you can play off and thereby feed your ball onto the putting surface. The slopes effectively widen the target for the approach shot. They are notably forgiving of slight misses.

Bob,

I think that's a punchbowl in its purest form.

I tend to categorize the templates as:

Pure
Hyrbid
Mongrel.

NGLA's punchbowl has the green and surrounding features you cite.
'The "self correcting" slopes that result in errant shots "looking good"

But, I think there's room for other types of non-pure punchbowls, such as the hybrids and mongrels.

Many of the pictures above are merely greens with mounds around them. Those mounds do not appear to function as slopes would on a true PB.


What I've noticed about the those types of holes is that by altering the maintainance practice, the mounds or slopes could function as you like, directing perimeter shots toward the center.

# 3 at Westhampton might be a good example of a relatively flat green surrounded by a sloping mound.
When that mound is mowed as fairway, the function you reference appears.  Mowed to rough, it's disfunctional.

[Sven Nilsen]

A couple of others that come to mind:

14 at Bayside (Bunker Hill)
6 at Blackstone (Engh)
8 at Pacific Dunes - back portion (Doak)
4 at Barnbougle Dunes (Doak)

[Alex Lagowitz]

IMO the most unique punchbowl of the Raynor portfolio is the par 3 3rd hole at Westhampton CC...
The lay of the land is flat and he basically dug a giant crater and put a green at the bottom
It plays very interesting as a blind par 3 where only the top of the pin is visible if it is in the back of the green

[Patrick_Mucci]

IMO the most unique punchbowl of the Raynor portfolio is the par 3 3rd hole at Westhampton CC...
The lay of the land is flat and he basically dug a giant crater and put a green at the bottom
It plays very interesting as a blind par 3 where only the top of the pin is visible if it is in the back of the green

Alex,

I think the hole's shortcoming is the failure to mow the slopes to fairway or green height

[Alex Lagowitz]

IMO the most unique punchbowl of the Raynor portfolio is the par 3 3rd hole at Westhampton CC...
The lay of the land is flat and he basically dug a giant crater and put a green at the bottom
It plays very interesting as a blind par 3 where only the top of the pin is visible if it is in the back of the green

Alex,

I think the hole's shortcoming is the failure to mow the slopes to fairway or green height

I agree, yet the uniqueness of the design itself is undeniable.
The last time I was there a few weeks ago, the hills were mowed to a first cut length and there was a little area of downslope as fringe.

[Bill Brightly]

Here is a neat one that I played yesterday for the first time: third hole at Applebrook by Gil Hanse:

[George Freeman]

Bill - I had never heard of Applebrook and just looked over the course tour on their website.  It looks very interesting!  What were your thoughts on the course?  Care to post any more pictures?

Thanks!

[Bill Brightly]

Bill - I had never heard of Applebrook and just looked over the course tour on their website.  It looks very interesting!  What were your thoughts on the course?  Care to post any more pictures?

Thanks!

I wish I had taken more photos, but I was playing in an interclub match so I felt that I owed it to my partner to focus on golf...

Applebrook is about 10 years old, a walking only facility, built by Gil Hanse. It is an inland links course and hardly any trees come into play. It is in impeccable shape from tee to green and an absolute blast to play. They are several holes where the ground game approach is superior to flying it to the green. For example, Hole #1 is par 5 that feeds hard left to right as you approach the green with a huge dune about 50 yards short of the green. After a good drive, I hit a faded 5 wood at the dune and watched it roll 40 yards onto the green. Hole 10 is another par 5 and my perfect second shot rescue club landed pin high, then bounded over. I really needed to work something off the high right shoulder. There are many other greens where the play is not at the pin but rather to favor the open, mounded side of the green.

On 18, match on the line and my side is one up, I crushed a drive and had only 7 iron left. My opponent was getting a shot, had 190 to the pin but it was severely uphill with a huge trap to carry. (looked like a monster Redan trap, to give you an idea.)  I figure a par halves the hole and there is no way he can keep his shot on the green. He smokes his shot long, but it rolls up the hill and back down (fairway length) and two putts for a net 3. I stick my 7 iron to 12 feet, but dont make the twisting side hill birdie.

Gil also built some great little par threes. We played the 11th hole from 105 yards, dead down wind and 4 single digit guys missed the green!

[George Freeman]

Sounds like a neat place.  Thanks Bill!

[Richard Chamberlain]

Draining PB's is always tricky, especially so in clay soils. I've always assumed that is why you see so few true PB's on Ross courses in the SE.
Bob

Agree. On clay sites I have always been more intent on getting water off greens rather than on it.
Are most of these better punchbowl examples built on free draining sand ?

[Scott Warren]

Richard,

Definitely all of the UK ones I have referenced are on sand. Most of Sean's too, except perhaps for Temple.

[Tim Gerrish]

Posted by: Tim Martin
Insert Quote
Although I don`t have a picture 15 at The Orchards in Western Mass is a great example by Ross. Another example which would be a Punchbowl on steroids would be 4("The Anthill") at Shenecossett which is also Ross.



Tim,  The Anthill is as far from a punchbowl design as there could be.  If anything, you might call it a inverted saucer.  There is no support in any direction...

There is a Ross punchbowl at Cohasset Golf Club in MA. 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I tend to like the visable punch bowl more. I agree pat, some of these are pure and others seem partial or hybrid as you called them

[Kalen Braley]

I've only seen one green complex that I would call pure, and its right here in the Spokane, WA area.

The green is literally a bowl, and the lowest part of the green is the middle of the green, and has a drain smack dab in the middle.

All others are hybrids compared to that!!   

[Niall C]

Richard,

Definitely all of the UK ones I have referenced are on sand. Most of Sean's too, except perhaps for Temple.

Scott

Just a note of interest, a lot of these old links courses which had punchbowls also used to have a layer of clay underneath the green to hold water so the greens wouldn't turn to dust in dry spells. This was before the days of irrigation. So while there might be a suggestion that you can have punchbowls on links because the greens are able to drain easily any water collected, I wonder if the opposite is actually true in that the punchbowl helped to gather water. I hasten to add this is my interpretation rather than based on anything I've read.

Niall

[Scott Warren]

Niall,

I've definitely read that in the days before irrigation systems the punchbowl greens' tendency to gather and hold water was a positive rather than a negative. But as for a layer of clay, I've not tread that before.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall,

Montclair's 1st hole, 4th nine has a terrific punchbowl green.

The soil is clay based, but, drainage was handled by tilting the structure of the green and surrounds to an exit point in the southwest corner of the green and surrounds, such that water drains out of that corner.

With USGA spec greens, I would imagine that implementing a slight rotation on its axis would greatly assist with drainage.

[Chris Cupit]

Our ninth hole was a complete punch bowl that was modified last year into a "half" punch bowl.  The original hole was uphill to a completely blind green.  A series of 7-8 bunkers guarded the front-left protion of the approach and there was a high right mound blocking the right side.  

The green was a complete bowl that frankly just wasn't large enough.  We had wear issues and all the balls collected in the same general area (who would have thought ).  Anyway, we added about 3500 sq. feet, lowered the front to open up a view into the green, added a lot of movement in the front half of the green and kept the back half as a punch bowl.  We also added a front pot bunker with a tiny false front that will roll a ball back off the green into it!  We also added a front right bunker which protects a front right shelf that is very difficult to hold.
 
It is still very controversial but I think it is a great view into the new green and the green has been very succesful dispersing traffic ( a little "Riley bump" in the middle of the green serves to deflect lots of shots in a fairly random pattern.  The small bump is pretty much in the middle and a player should be able to hit one side or the other with a short iron.

The tee shot is downhill and the second uphill.  The hole is 385 from the tips and most play a 3-wood or hybrid just to or short of the left fairway bunkers and then a 7-9 iron into the green.  A driver will get you onto the upslope of the fairway with a PW or less but the right side can narrow up with some overhanging limbs and OB way right.

Here are some pics and sketches of the green:

 
  Looking up the fiarway from the left rough into the green.  There is a hole location over that top left bunker--about 20-25 feet of green left of the flag on the front of the green.    

  Right in front of the green which looks very benign due to the camera shot.

  From the left bunker (not the middle pot) looking across the green

  Sketch of the green showing re-routing of the horrible cart path that was on the right

  Some (very amateurish) sketches of #9.  Obviously I have little drawing or artisitic ability