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Patrick_Mucci

The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« on: May 31, 2011, 09:31:05 PM »
I was thinking about a question someone had asked me about templates and other architects.

My answer to the question was that other architects employed templates, but not systemically, as CBM-SR-CB did.

Not long ago I played an olde Donald Ross course with a punchbowl green.

Then I thought of two local courses, Montclair and Essex County East which have marvelous punchbowl greens.

Now the term "punchbowl" sometimes defines the bowl like structure of the putting surface, other times the bowl like perimeter just off the putting surface, and sometimes both.

Some claim that punchbowl greens are difficult due to drainage, others that they're difficult where green speeds are high due to the restricted cupping area.

What are some good to great punchbowl holes by other architects, olde and modern ?

And, with modern earthmoving equipment and drainage skills, why don't we see more of them ?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2011, 09:49:14 PM »
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Mac Plumart

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2011, 09:50:20 PM »
Modern...9 at Rivermont...designed by Mike Riley and Chris Cupit.

The hole is maybe 350 yards...tee shot is down hill...approach is up hill...green is a massive punchbowl with a bit of a "chip" in the front of the punchbowl allowing golfers to see the pin on their approach...and the green is magnificent.  I could putt on that thing for hours from different spots and have a blast.


Why don't we see more of them?  Who knows...perhaps the modern golfing powers that be are missing the boat.



Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

David_Elvins

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2011, 09:59:22 PM »
Whilst not a true 'punchbowl, the 'punchbowl' at the creek club is amazing IMO, and I am at a loss as to why it has not been replicated more often.



The natural green site is quite common.  Slightly uphill in front of the green and a broad slope from left to right (ss the player plays it).  

There have been hundreds of greens built on similar green sites and 99% are siimply (and effectively) benched into the left to right slope, somethines with a diagonal element and sometimes with a false front.  

The green at the creek club has a mound that rings the green on the high side which creates interesting recovery shots and protects the green from water running down the hill.   The front left of the green is built up with a narrow gap to run the ball through if wanted.  The green slopes off to the back right, providing excellent drainage.  I dare say, that in this instance, the 'punchbowl' green' is better drained than a more conventional green.   Whilst a true punchbowl requires specific land to work, this variation could be replicated on most sites.  It is a mystery as to why it has not. 

An amazing green and so different to what I am used to seeing.  On my last trip to the US, I went to Bandon, Monterey and and Philly.  This green is what I think about the most.  
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 10:01:22 PM by David_Elvins »
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Scott Warren

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2011, 10:03:10 PM »
The 7th at Silloth-on-Solway (Park Sr and Jr).


The 12th at County Louth (Tom Simpson).


The 3rd at Royal Cinque Ports, naturally (Harry Hunter).


The 16th at Trevose (Colt).

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2011, 10:41:27 PM »
I am guessing you are speaking of modern architects. lets see Tom chime in. He has one at Old Mac. It is a great hole. He has other holes with features of greens with feeding parts of greens as did Todd E at Barona Creek. I wonder if either wants to go far enough to make is a somewhat common feature going forward.

Michael Barnett

Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2011, 10:46:53 PM »
For a modern course...how about #5 at Kingsley?  One of my favorite green sites there, it sits in a wonderful natural bowl that is augmented by what Mike did.  As for classic, I'd 2nd Pat's comment on 14 at Essex County; another great site, albeit one where the punchbowl features sit slightly off the green itself.

Brian_Sleeman

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2011, 10:48:49 PM »


The 7th at Crystal Downs.

Ed Oden

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2011, 10:50:01 PM »
I really like the punchbowl green on the 16th hole at Augusta CC...


archie_struthers

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2011, 10:52:19 PM »
 >:(

.the 5th at Greate Bay .......Willie Park jr.   

Mark Saltzman

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2011, 10:59:53 PM »
15 at Mountain Lake










Also, 6 at Grove Park Inn had a punchbowl feel to it.

DMoriarty

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2011, 11:03:54 PM »
Circa 1913
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Alex Miller

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2011, 11:25:57 PM »
I saw the 12(?)th at Chambers during some of the US Am coverage. Looked pretty darn cool to me. I think it's a great par 3 for the better golfer.  ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2011, 11:48:36 PM »
Did Donald Ross use the punchbowl feature frequently ?

Sean_A

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2011, 02:55:00 AM »
Pat

The "problem" of a punchbowl in its truest sense is twofold.  First, the shot is blind.  Second, a large degree of luck is involved.  I am guessing that guys like Colt and Dr Mac tried to avoid this sort of design and these guys were a huge influence on design principles going forward.  In fact, I can't think of many well known archies that extoll the virtues of the Punchbowl. 

One of the more interesting punchbowl's is Burnham's 3rd.  The two hollows short of the green make this more of an aerial approach and of course the more keen the course the more one has to be careful about bouncing through the bowl.  


By far the most unique puncbowl I have come across is Temple's 10th.  Its hard to believe there is a green of any description sitting out there at 230 yards.


Out of nowhere - as true a puncbowl as one will ever see.


One of the better punchbowls I have come across is Hoylake's 9th.  Its not a 100% puncher,  but a variation on the theme.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 02:59:24 AM by Sean Arble »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2011, 07:46:09 AM »
Sean,

Some punchbowls are visible.  # 6 at The Creek as an example.

The "luck" aspect tends to be "good luck".

The structure of the green and surrounds acts as a self correcting feature.

I think punchbowls are the architects concession to the golfer. A bonus that rewards the golfer in his challenging journey

Bill_McBride

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2011, 08:45:34 AM »
I really liked the punchbowl #12 at Chicago Golf Club.

Just a thought, punchbowls are a lot more fun when the surrounding slopes are mowed tight so the ball has a chance to feed off and ricochet around!

BCrosby

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2011, 09:05:42 AM »
Mike Young's huge PB 17th at Longshadow is not to be missed. A very creative take on the idea.

Draining PB's is always tricky, especially so in clay soils. I've always assumed that is why you see so few true PB's on Ross courses in the SE.

Bob

Britt Rife

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2011, 09:11:27 AM »
I really liked the punchbowl #12 at Chicago Golf Club.

Just a thought, punchbowls are a lot more fun when the surrounding slopes are mowed tight so the ball has a chance to feed off and ricochet around!

I agree that punchbowls are fun when the slopes are shaved, but I don't feel as if I've seen this very often.  If they are intended as "a concession to the golfer", as Pat says, they should be mown tight.  But if the slopes have a bit of grass, it can be a fun challenge to try to get to the hole from the slope, as the slope will force the ball out lower, and the danger is either not getting the ball through the grass slope and leaving it short or else sort of thinning it and watching the ball run to the other side of the green.  

Yeh, I like the "mown tight" option a lot more.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2011, 09:39:44 AM »
Old - 15 at Sleepy Hollow
New - 6 at Shepherds Crook (Foster)
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Phil McDade

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2011, 09:44:48 AM »
The 8th at Blue Mound, a faithfully maintained Raynor in suburban Milwaukee WI, excerpted from the BM photo thread of a year ago:

#8 (par 4, 445/406 – Punchbowl)
Most of Blue Mound sits upon very flat land, and therefore much of its challenge derives from the placement of its deep bunkers and those diabolical Raynor greens. The 8th is an exception, and it’s one of the best holes at Blue Mound. The fairway moves uphill all the way to the green. Trees lurk close to the fairway on both sides, and the rough here is some of the thickest on the course. The golfer declining to take driver off the tee to avoid the trees and rough will do so knowing he’ll be left with a much longer, uphill approach shot. Long iron, hybrid and fairway wood approaches were the order of the day during the Western Junior.


Gashing the fairway some 300 yards off the tee is this bunker complex, which is deep and penal. I didn’t see anyone come close to reaching it off the tee at the Western Junior; one hopes the tees are moved up a bit for next year’s Amateur championship qualifying round, in the hope that the long-hitting amateurs will try to take on what could be set up as a solid risk/reward hole.


A look back at the 8th fairway and the tee in the distance; the 8th is one of the few fairways at Blue Mound where the golfer is likely to encounter an unlevel lie in the fairway.


Another marvelous Raynor greensite, a true punchbowl. Although not depicted well here, the green features several internal contours (click on hole #8 on the club website scorecard above to see some of the countouring).


Mike Hendren

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2011, 09:45:01 AM »
The most interesting I've seen is Macan's at Fircrest's second hole.    The tee shot is blind and severely downhill to a plateau on the fairway.   The second is also severely downhill to a flat green at the base of the hill.  The front of the green is slightly obscrued by an abrupt hump in the fairway about 20 yards short of the green.  The green is ringed on the sides and rear with a modest mound, creating a punchbowl effect.  Unfortunately the putting surface doesn't extend up the mound.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

BCrosby

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2011, 09:58:35 AM »
I had always thought of a PB as a green with sloped surrounds that you can play off and thereby feed your ball onto the putting surface. The slopes effectively widen the target for the approach shot. They are notably forgiving of slight misses.

Many of the pictures above are merely greens with mounds around them. Those mounds do not appear to function as slopes would on a true PB.

Bob

Phil McDade

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2011, 10:04:46 AM »
I had always thought of a PB as a green with sloped surrounds that you can play off and thereby feed your ball onto the putting surface. The slopes effectively widen the target for the approach shot. They are notably forgiving of slight misses.

Many of the pictures above are merely greens with mounds around them. Those mounds do not appear to function as slopes would on a true PB.

Bob

Bob:

That's a good point -- at Blue Mound, the Punchbowl green is artificial; it certainly can help balls from going over the back side of the green, because it's a pretty big backstop. But I can't imagine many golfers deliberately using either of the sideboards on that green, because the trouble for missing is so penal (not really depicted well in these photos) that's there is no real reward for doing so. The shot into that green for most players will be long and uphill -- long irons and utilities -- that the common-sense play is simply to take aim at the green, and not really care if the shot is too long, because of the backboard mound there. Nonetheless, I still think this is a terrific hole, one of the best at a nicely maintained Raynor.

michael damico

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Re: The "Punchbowl" as a template.
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2011, 10:13:19 AM »
Oak Hill West #15 (old #6 before the nines were switched) has a blind drive to an elevated 'punchbowl' greensite. I wish I still had pictures, but that's another instance of Ross utilizing the punchbowl.


Doak also used a punchbowl at the renovation/redesign of North Shore #6
"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
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